Elmarit-M 28mm ASPH:

[adan]

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Maybe - maybe not. I am comparing it to my "gold standard" - the 1980-generation lens from Leitz Canada - across all cameras I've used (M8/9/10).

BTW - this is a reason I personally try to avoid any post-1990 M lenses for color. Equally BTW, I have been battling "too much magenta" in color photography for decades - Nikkors, Zeiss/Contax, EOS Canon, Fuji Velvia, you name it - too purple. I want what I got with Canon FD breechlock lenses on Kodachrome 25 in the 1970s - which the Mandler ELC lenses come very close to (or vice-versa ).

I happen to have both the ASPH and the new-used 1980 lens that will replace it, and shot some comparisons on my "Covid exercise walk" yesterday. Similarly for 90 Summicron-M (1979) and the 90 Summarit f/2.5 that will go on the auction block.

The sidewalk in this picture was slightly yellow-gray - not pink. Green foliage, not orangey-green. Kodachrome-cyan skies and clouds. Note how the REAL oranges/browns/pinks pop when not surrounded by other pinks. And note shadow detail top left.

M10, identical exposures, identical raw-processing settings (WB 5000°K, all other settings). There is no WB setting that will exactly correct the ASPH to match the Mandler/Canada accuracy and contrast without distorting other colors and tones. Once the lens has squeezed too much cyan/green out of the picture, it cannot be put back.

While the Mandler lenses deliver what I want straight out of every camera, with a minimum of fuss.

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Edited April 29, 2020 by adan

[RF’sDelight]

Interesting! I'll look into that too and compare my Elmarit-M Type III (1913–1983 Anniversary model) with the Elmarit-M Asph.

[lykaman]

Whilst I realize some look for the Optimal Reproduction, the slight tinge on the Path is only realized when put against another image with a different color cast.. Seen individually either Image is acceptable..  My image is from this morning, lowly D-Lux 7 - IMHO a masterful color reproducer..  L

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[adan]

28 minutes ago, lykaman said:

Seen individually either Image is acceptable.

Well, I won't make the obvious argument: "Why pay Leica prices to only get 'acceptable'?"

I would say that I have gotten where I have in photography - as a published photographer, picture editor, graphic designer, teacher, and selling artist - exactly by never settling for "acceptable." Especially as regards visual qualities. Which has sometimes required paying Leica prices.

My Nikkors and Kyocera/Zeisses were definitely acceptable. And so is the Elmarit ASPH. I just decided I didn't have to settle for that.

[lykaman]

21 minutes ago, adan said:

Well, I won't make the obvious argument: "Why pay Leica prices to only get 'acceptable'?"

I would say that I have gotten where I have in photography - as a published photographer, picture editor, graphic designer, teacher, and selling artist - exactly by never settling for "acceptable." Especially as regards visual qualities. Which has sometimes required paying Leica prices.

My Nikkors and Kyocera/Zeisses were definitely acceptable. And so is the Elmarit ASPH. I just decided I didn't have to settle for that.

Aloha, Leica Prices have nothing to do with Reproduction Qualities ~ Yes their Lenses  are top notch, so are quite a few other Lens manufacturers.. You chose Leica, so be it..  Why bang your drum?   One other point - Leica Equipment Retail costs vary worldwide, so if you buy @ a higher price the images are better?   L

Edited April 30, 2020 by lykaman

[pippy]

9 hours ago, adan said:

...M10, identical exposures, identical raw-processing settings (WB 5000°K, all other settings). There is no WB setting that will exactly correct the ASPH to match the Mandler/Canada accuracy and contrast without distorting other colors and tones. Once the lens has squeezed too much cyan/green out of the picture, it cannot be put back......While the Mandler lenses deliver what I want straight out of every camera, with a minimum of fuss.

Interesting, adan!

I'll try to sort out a similar experiment when I get a bit of time. I have 35mm and 90mm focal-lengths from the Mandler and Karbe eras and a Mandler 50mm which can be compared with a couple of new - but non-Leica - designs. Cross-curves is, as you say, something which cannot be corrected in post. I'll include a colour-checker in the image area so as to 'zero' the DNG files.

As it happens for me any colour-shift is neither here nor there as 99% of my photography is always going to be reproduced as monochrome. The contrast point might, in theory, be more of an issue but I've never once noticed I had a situation with the blacks filling-in hopelessly but I don't live in a country noted for its exteme light-and-shade. Even on a trip to a VERY sunny Seville the detail was always there. FWIW Quite a few of these snaps have been reproduced in some of the recent 'Barnack's Challenge' threads. Perhaps nearer the equator where the sun is even more fierce it's a greater problem?

Coincidentally I'm shooting stuff for publication in the studio at the moment and of the 4 (Canon) lenses which get used daily there is one, a 50mm prime, which needs to have a bit more Green dialled-in to neutralise it in comparison to the rest. That lens is a more recent design; all the rest are identical in colour-balance and date from the same time as each other.

Philip.

EDIT : Brain-Fart this a.m.; I don't have a Karbe-era 35mm......I was thinking of the 28. Silly me.

Edited April 30, 2020 by pippy

[AndreasG]

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb adan:

I happen to have both the ASPH and the new-used 1980 lens that will replace it, and shot some comparisons

Coincidently, same with me, I got a 1983 Canada Elmarit 28 and 2013 ASPH version. I made a comparison today early morning, overcast sky unfortunately. I changed lenses within a few seconds, so probably no change of illumination. Camera settings manual, ISO 200, f/6.4, 1/125, photos are OOC jpgs, slightly cropped, no post processing.

I basically can confirm adan's result, the photo (right) with the ASPH lens is more "pinkish" - see the light grey railing, the branches and the greens (lawn!) are different. However, and this is better visible in the original photos, resolution of the shadows and sharpness of the ASPH version is better.

 

Left, old Elmarit 28                                                                                                                            Right, ASPH V1 Elmarit 28

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[adan]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

I don't live in a country noted for its exteme light-and-shade. Even on a trip to a VERY sunny Seville the detail was always there.

Living in Colorado, literally a mile high at my doorstep (very high UV index), and with ~245 sunny days a year (often with little or no clouds at all for fill reflections), is very likely a factor in my preference. Especially if I add another 6000-9000 feet, up amid the mountaintops. (Although I still prefer the Leitz Canada color even at sea level).

https://uv.willyweather.com/co/denver-county/denver.html

I traded into Leica M in 2001 precisely because I did a similar color comparison on Velvia with a 1980 21mm and 90 vs. Contax G equivalents, and vastly preferred the minus-red Leica lenses. Seven Contax boxes went into the store - one M4-2 and the Canadian 21 and 90 came out.

The next year, Erwin Puts published his ebook Leica Lenses - Their Soul and Secrets, which included the chart below (p.18), showing lens color characteristics, which put numbers to what I was seeing. I have picked out the pre-ASPH Leitz Canada lenses on this list in Green: note that they are always relatively high in green quotient compared to red and blue (∆ green over red of +2 or +3). The industry ideal (per Puts) would be 0-4-3 (28 Elmarit v.4, 50 Summicron and 135 APO-Telyt, ∆ +1) - but that extra +1 or +2 is what "made" Leica - for me.

The chart precedes the 2006 introduction of the 28 Elmarit ASPH, thus "current" is the 1991 v.4, and "previous" is the 1980 Canadian v.3.

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https://www.overgaard.dk/pdf/Leica-M-Lenses-Their-Soul-and-Secrets_en.pdf

I'm no glass chemist, so I don't know why this particular generation of lenses have this characteristic. I doubt Leitz Canada was still using Canada Balsam as their lens cement by 1980. But I have heard tell that Leitz used Absorban cement with a UV blocking effect, and perhaps Dr. Mandler just specced a stronger dose that year.

In which case - Thank Bog!

[pippy]

3 hours ago, AndreasG said:

...I made a comparison today early morning, overcast sky unfortunately...

On the contrary; an overcast sky is usually better for the sake of making valid comparisons as it will stay more constant as time goes by and, by effecting less variation, will affect results less than a sky with stronger colour values. Not so relevant if, as in your case this morning, you changed lenses within a few seconds but if I'm going to do a similar experiment next week with eight lenses or so then the more overcast the better!

Philip.

[adan]

7 hours ago, AndreasG said:

However, and this is better visible in the original photos, resolution of the shadows and sharpness of the ASPH version is better.

Possibly. Although your ASPH shot, as posted, has a bit more exposure overall (brighter everywhere, not just the shadows) - but ASPH MTF compared to a 40-year-old design, no doubt.

Anyway, we are probably scaring the Normal Person (kengai) with this digression.

The 28 f/2.8 ASPH is an excellent lens of the modern "Peter Karbe" style. It will fit right in with Leica's other current lenses. And amazingly compact, which will be a benefit in balancing nicely on a CL. Don't let my pet preference for old-school color rendering put you off.

[AndreasG]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb adan:

has a bit more exposure overall (brighter everywhere, not just the shadows)

That is a good question, actually, all parameters were set manually, and between shot 1 and 2 just 23 seconds passed. Anyhow, the lenses are different and depending on purpose, we can chose which lens to prefer, for me, right now the compactness of the ASPH version is dominating my decision for shootinng, but that can change any time....

adan, I definitely respect your opinion and preference for traditionell rendering!

Best regards

Andreas

[ola.fiske]

I have had the 28/2.8 ASPH two times, but always l return to the v3 preASPH. I’m more happy with the classic rendering of this older lens.

[J.Nordvik]