Question about TTL metering

[Jodad]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hey All,

From what i have read, the some of the m6s have TTL metering and the MP doesn't. How does the MP meter then?

Why do you think they did that considering the MP is newer and how useful is the TTL? Would you be losing a lot not having TTL or gaining a lot having it?

 

[TomB_tx]

All M6 and the current MP DO have TTL metering for normal exposures. The M6TTL is a different model that adds TTL Flash metering with a supported flash - the camera measures the flash and controls the flash duration.

Since I never use flash I have no reason to swap my M6 for an M6TTL

[Jodad]

Thanks Tom. i see.  TTL flash sounds like quite an advantage over having to figure the settings out yourself no? I have looked into flash and it seems quite complicated and a trial and error thing outside of a studio like at a party or outdoors in the eve for example. especially considering leica only sync at 50th

Edited March 25, 2020 by Jodad

[spydrxx]

Non-studio flash isn't really as complicated as you think. I've had flash TTL on several cameras, and have to say that in most instances the results are no better than using a regular flash and their onboard aperture/distance scales (I'm speaking specifically about electronic flash here, not flashbulbs).In the 1970s, I used electronic flash on my M4 a lot, usually bounced, and almost always got great results. Recently I've been experimenting again with flash in a variety of different circumstances including macro, and it seems to work just fine without TTL "enhancements".

[250swb]

23 hours ago, Jodad said:

Thanks Tom. i see.  TTL flash sounds like quite an advantage over having to figure the settings out yourself no? I have looked into flash and it seems quite complicated and a trial and error thing outside of a studio like at a party or outdoors in the eve for example. especially considering leica only sync at 50th

So you've gone from saying the MP can't do ttl flash to retrenching even further to say it's difficult. But Leica photographers have managed to use flash, ttl or not, for seventy years with the M camera, more with others. Where is the weakest link, expectation or knowledge? Look at the work of Bruce Gilden to see how even a none ttl M4-P and a manual flash gun can deliver.

[Jodad]

44 minutes ago, 250swb said:

So you've gone from saying the MP can't do ttl flash to retrenching even further to say it's difficult. But Leica photographers have managed to use flash, ttl or not, for seventy years with the M camera, more with others. Where is the weakest link, expectation or knowledge? Look at the work of Bruce Gilden to see how even a none ttl M4-P and a manual flash gun can deliver.

The way you write makes you sound offended and almost aggressive. Perhaps my interpretation is incorrect because of the lack of vocal tone in written material. I’ll ignore that then. 
 

However, what you write also isn’t accurate. I didn’t write anywhere that Mp can’t do ttl flash. In fact I was informed by another that it was the m6 that had ttl flash functionality in a way that one could deduce that the mp didn’t. But no where did anyone write that the Mp couldn’t. 
 

Clearly the weakest link here is a lack of knowledge on my part. I wouldn’t be asking the questions otherwise would I. You are evidently very sharp for deducing that I lack the knowledge of flash photog with a Leica. Thanks for pointing that out for the others here who must be too dumb to realise that my question was a request for knowledge. Either that or you’re just, I don’t know...

Still, thanks for the suggestion to look at Gilden’s work. I’ve actually seen it in my quest for knowledge but I would never assume that just because HE can, I should be able to. To me, from what I’ve read it seems like it isn’t the easiest thing to do well consistently on film when in a changing environment. 

anyway thanks for the comment mr Ferrari

[Jodad]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

6 hours ago, spydrxx said:

Non-studio flash isn't really as complicated as you think. I've had flash TTL on several cameras, and have to say that in most instances the results are no better than using a regular flash and their onboard aperture/distance scales (I'm speaking specifically about electronic flash here, not flashbulbs).In the 1970s, I used electronic flash on my M4 a lot, usually bounced, and almost always got great results. Recently I've been experimenting again with flash in a variety of different circumstances including macro, and it seems to work just fine without TTL "enhancements".

I suppose I should just get on woth it and have a go. Maybe it just seems more difficult when it’s being read that when it’s actually being done. Thanks friendly neighbourhood Spyderman

[spydrxx]

I wouldn't be put off by its seeming "complexity". In most cases it isn't complex until you get into certain artistic situations or for special effects. The most frequent "errors" new users make is red-eye in portraits, where the ambient light is low so subject pupils are wide open and then the intense direct flash reflects off their retinas. It can be avoided by either a pre-flash, if that capability is available or by bouncing flash off a ceiling or side wall. The secondmost "error" IMHO, is shooting a subject closeup with a somewhat distant background when you want everything to have a similar tonality...you just can't spread a direct flash evenly over significantly different distances and expectto have an even exposure. There are a variety of "tricks" one can employ when using flash to get a better percentage of keepers. These days I often use a flash head which I can adjust to bounce its light for a more even dispersal, and it also has a  built in option of shooting a much less intense direct flash directly onto the subject simultaneously, with a thyristor circuit evening out the overall exposure. Old school technology, but it works great. In your case I'd suggest, since I believe you said you had digital, experimenting there for instant feedback with your chosen film flash unit, before trying it on your film body...it can significantly reduce the learning curve and alert you to stuff you may not have thought of, like adjusting exposure for ceiling reflectivity for bounce flash, flash coverage angle to match the focal length of your lens, and stuff like than. Anyway...give it a try...you may find that you like it or at least can appreciate it as another tool in your kit!

edited to show my favorite versatile flash head.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited March 26, 2020 by spydrxx

[BradS]

On 3/25/2020 at 1:47 PM, Jodad said:

Thanks Tom. i see.  TTL flash sounds like quite an advantage over having to figure the settings out yourself no? I have looked into flash and it seems quite complicated and a trial and error thing outside of a studio like at a party or outdoors in the eve for example. especially considering leica only sync at 50th

Using an on camera electronic flash need not be complicated.  Virtually all electronic flash units made since at least the 1980's have had their own built in light metering and flash control circuitry.  Using them is as simple as setting the film speed on the flash and selecting an appropriate auto range based upon camera to subject distance (and you have a very sophisticated distance measuring device built into that expensive camera!).  See, for example, the Vivitar 283 or  Sunpak 383 (or,  just about any plain-jane, non-dedicated  Vivitar or Sunpak auto flash from the 1980's and 1990's...maybe even early 2000's - I've not kept track). To me, the TTL Flash capability in the M6TTL feels a lot like marketing hype and an attempt by Leica to capture more revenues.  It is a nice feature but for the most part adds nothing and it requires an expensive dedicated Leica flash.

[Matlock]

2 hours ago, BradS said:

  It is a nice feature but for the most part adds nothing and it requires an expensive dedicated Leica flash.

Or a Metz SCA 3502 Adaptor.

[philipus]

Hi Jodad

I think TTL flash metering is useful with my M6TTL and the SF-24 flash. Point and shoot with very good results particularly in fast-moving situations. The drawback with the M system is the terribly long sync speed of 1/50 which makes it all but useless outdoors daytime unless it's overcast, in shade or if you have a slowish film. But as others have said you can use a simple auto-thyristor flash too with excellent results. Really simple ones have a table somewhere, like on the side on this old flash I bought for a few Euros and use with my M4 and other cameras. Super easy to use. The slightly more advanced but still simple flashes have various power settings, like 1/2, 1/4 etc, but you can easily achieve that with the simple flash below by adjusting your aperture.

Off camera flash is really useful for creativity and reducing the risk of red eyes etc. It can be done many ways. I use the Cactus triggers which work with virtually all cameras and flashes. Solid and reliable connection.

Btw the Metz flash Spydrxx shows is truly excellent. I have one too. Extremely powerful and versatile and easy to pick up second hand for very little.

Good luck

Philip

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

On 3/25/2020 at 9:47 PM, Jodad said:

Thanks Tom. i see.  TTL flash sounds like quite an advantage over having to figure the settings out yourself no? I have looked into flash and it seems quite complicated and a trial and error thing outside of a studio like at a party or outdoors in the eve for example. especially considering leica only sync at 50th

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by philipus

[George Stoichev]

On 3/25/2020 at 10:44 PM, TomB_tx said:

All M6 and the current MP DO have TTL metering for normal exposures. The M6TTL is a different model that adds TTL Flash metering with a supported flash - the camera measures the flash and controls the flash duration.

Since I never use flash I have no reason to swap my M6 for an M6TTL

I use to hear film photographers saying they never use flash and I’m curious how you shoot a person by night? I do understand that we rarely use the flash, but limited to ISO 800 or 1600 there is no other way to shoot a person in the dark.

[TomB_tx]

Look at the old books on Leica photography from the early 1950s, when the IIIf was the latest model - in the chapters on available light photography. Back then ASA 125 was very fast film - TriX at 400 had yet to appear. Common lenses were 3.5 to 2.0, although the 1.5 Summarit was available. You learned to be very steady and use slow shutter speeds (1/15 or so) accepting that moving subjects would blur, and also accepting that the photos wouldn't look like daylight shots. These photos LOOKED like nighttime pictures, with deep shadows and black space, few bright tones even in the subjects, which stood out from the murky background. Yes, they were often underexposed, using the film latitude to get a decent picture. But overall the images were strong and had great appeal, conveying what you saw when taking the photo.

When I first took night and very dim indoor shots on digital, that ambiance was lost - they didn't show the effect of dim lighting and range. I get better result now, using a spot meter to get meter subject highlights, and let the overall image darken. A Sony A7 in spot mode controls this well, showing the effect in live-view as you move the metering spot around.

"Real" photographers would say that this method isn't technically very good, but it gives the feeling of dim-light shots that I want to convey. 

[giannis]

On 3/25/2020 at 9:47 PM, Jodad said:

Thanks Tom. i see.  TTL flash sounds like quite an advantage over having to figure the settings out yourself no? I have looked into flash and it seems quite complicated and a trial and error thing outside of a studio like at a party or outdoors in the eve for example. especially considering leica only sync at 50th

It is an advantage, maybe not as big of an advantage as you think though.

 

Even the most basic flashes have a metering cell on the flash and a thyristor circuit to control flash illumination and cut it instantly when correct exposure is reached. Those are called “autothyristor” flashes and this metering mode “auto”.
 

What TTL adds to that is, instead of using the flash’s metering cell to control flash exposure, it uses the cameras integrated meter to do the same thing. What this means, practically, is that you can bounce the flash, use it off camera etc., and with TTL the metering will be still correct (if you used the flash off camera in “auto” mode, ie not TTL, the flash meter is pointing to something else than what the lens sees, so exposure will be off). Secondarily, with more “extreme” focal lengths (I.e. outside 28-75mm), the field of view of what the lens sees starts being quite different to the fixed field of view of roughly 30mm or so, that the flash meter has. In these situations, TTL is more accurate, but in 28-50mm the accuracy is practically the same between the two. Lastly, the more basic autothyristor flashes offer just a couple apertures available for you to set, while with TTL you can set any aperture (yet with more advanced flashes, which still are very cheap, you get pretty much the same wide choice of aperture like with TTL so no big difference).

 

All in all, while TTL is good to have, it’s not a huge deal breaker in the most common situations (28-50mm focal length, flash mounted on camera hotshoe). Of course the big disadvantage if TTL is that it’s unique to each camera and flashgun, so you can only use compatible guns on compatible cameras and nowhere else (if you want to keep TTL functionality), which restricts choice quite a bit and increases prices.

[Fotoklaus]

I use a Metz 32 CT3 in Auto Mode most of the Time with different cameras.

Almost always perfect exposed pictures for the cost of 2 Beers.

And with the SCA 351 TTL Flash would be also possible with a analog Leica.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Fotoklaus

[Huss]

Basic auto flashes are really easy to use.  As others have said, just look at the chart on the back of the flash. Look what aperture setting it indicates for your film speed.  Set that on your lens. Set your camera to the flash sync speed.  That's it.

Here I used a super simple Sunpak Auto 121c with my M3.  What is really nice about this tiny and cheap flash ($10) is it has a built in sync cable, so no hot shoe needed.  Just plug into the sync port on the camera.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited March 8, 2022 by Huss