M9M VS M10M

[fotografr]

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9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

We see things differently, in more ways than one. So be it.

Jeff

If you look at post #588 in the "M10 Monochrom Images" thread, you'll see a perfect example of the kind of web post I was referring to which can effectively be used to judge the capability of the M10 Monochrom. In that post by Frozenintime, it doesn't matter in the least that we are looking at a compressed jpeg.

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[IkarusJohn]

On 2/23/2020 at 4:39 AM, fotografr said:

I've spent a lot of time looking through the M9M images posted here and comparing them to the M10M images. The most obvious difference is that the M10M images seem to lack the "pop" that has traditionally been part of the appeal of b&w photography. I think the reason for this is that the M10M produces images that have considerably more detail in both the highlight and shadow areas, so there isn't that sharp jump to clean white and deep black that comes with M9M photos. It's possible to produce the same look with M10M images, but doing so often requires clipping both highlight and shadow areas in post processing, or, as has been mentioned previously, using a yellow or orange filter to increase the contrast.

Most of us aren't used to seeing so much detail in the light and dark areas of our images, or having such a rich tonal scale represented. It may take time to get used to this but ultimately I feel the M10M will change how we view and appreciate b&w photography.

Looking at the post by FrozeninTime:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305423-leica-m10-monochrom-images/?do=findComment&comment=3917319

I agree you can see considerable detail in the clocktower after processing.  It may be the technique used, but the processed image suffers, in my view.  The highlights remain reasonably well preserved, but lifting the shadows makes the image muddy - lacking in contrast, which is the point you were making.

While the grey tones of the Monochrom cameras are to be applauded, I must say I prefer contrast.  I doubt it's a strength or failing of any of the Monochrom cameras so much as the processing technique used.  As Jeff has pointed out elsewhere, with these cameras, you need to think in terms of zones, and areas which will be black, nd which white.  Neither is a fault, if properly considered.

Reducing everything to shades of grey makes the image look like there's a total eclipse ...

[Jeff S]

40 minutes ago, fotografr said:

If you look at post #588 in the "M10 Monochrom Images" thread, you'll see a perfect example of the kind of web post I was referring to which can effectively be used to judge the capability of the M10 Monochrom. In that post by Frozenintime, it doesn't matter in the least that we are looking at a compressed jpeg.

Sorry, it’s clear that you don’t follow my many points of disagreement.  No sense in reiterating.  We’ll agree to disagree.

Jeff

[fotografr]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Looking at the post by FrozeninTime:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305423-leica-m10-monochrom-images/?do=findComment&comment=3917319

I agree you can see considerable detail in the clocktower after processing.  It may be the technique used, but the processed image suffers, in my view.  The highlights remain reasonably well preserved, but lifting the shadows makes the image muddy - lacking in contrast, which is the point you were making.

While the grey tones of the Monochrom cameras are to be applauded, I must say I prefer contrast.  I doubt it's a strength or failing of any of the Monochrom cameras so much as the processing technique used.  As Jeff has pointed out elsewhere, with these cameras, you need to think in terms of zones, and areas which will be black, nd which white.  Neither is a fault, if properly considered.

Reducing everything to shades of grey makes the image look like there's a total eclipse ...

The point of what Frozenintime demonstrated was to show how much detail can be recovered from the deep shadows of M10M images. It was not to show how great the final image looks. I think he and anyone else looking at it would agree that the contrast is not good and the whites in the final image are dull.

The reason I selected his post was to point out that this kind of demonstration, even being compressed jpegs on a web forum, can effectively show the capabilities of one camera in relation to another--which is the subject of this thread. I would challenge anyone at any skill level to try to pull that much detail out of deep shadows using the MM1.

There's really no need to make this a complicated technical discussion. The OP asked for opinions about the differences between the MM1 and M10M. I attempted to provide information pertinent to his question by making reference to image threads for both cameras and was promptly berated for doing so by a couple of people who maintained essentially that no valid conclusions can be drawn by viewing compressed jpegs posted on a web forum.

I agree that viewing a compressed jpeg on a forum is not a good way to determine what any camera is capable of producing, but I absolutely believe that differences between cameras like the MM1 and M10M can be clearly observed.

[IkarusJohn]

Yes, I understand that.  Clearly, more detail can be extracted from the shadows; and I would expect the M10M to do that.

What interests me is not so much the many points of disagreement and approach that Jeff enjoys; it was the aesthetic of the M10M compared to the M9 Monochrom.

When the original Monochrom (‘Henri’) was released, I thought it was silly.  I then downloaded some of Jono’s raw files and processed them, and I was hooked; not because of dynamic range, resolution or anything like that.  The files were “flat”, but once you started processing them they came alive.

From what I’ve seen, I’m not at all convinced that if the files had come from the M10M I would be as hooked.  Not because of the detail which ca be extracted from shadows or anything like that.  There was just something about those files that I loved.  Can’t explain it better than that.  I’ve printed files from my Monochrom, and they are amazing - properly processed and printed (by White Wall on baryta paper), they reveal a tonal range that is just fabulous.  I’m sure M10M owners will be as happy; as I am with mine.

Edited February 24, 2020 by IkarusJohn

[fotografr]

7 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

 

When the original Monochrom (‘Henri’) was released, I thought it was silly.  I then downloaded some of Jono’s raw files and processed them, and I was hooked; not because of dynamic range, resolution or anything like that.  The files were “flat”, but once you started processing them they came alive.

 

That's pretty much the same experience I had with the MM1. Several times since I got my first one in 2012, I've said it was my all time favorite camera. I don't know that the M10M will give me the same feeling. In time, it might. The build quality, improved shutter and smaller body, better high ISO performance and dynamic range are hefty considerations. I haven't printed any M10M files yet because I'm traveling for a few more weeks, but there are images on my card now that I'm very eager to see printed large. That will be the ultimate test.

Edited February 24, 2020 by fotografr

[Likaleica]

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I've been comparing the two cameras extensively because, like many, I am very fond of the M9M.  I've been pixel peeping and printing up to 60x40 cm.

For all daylight lighting conditions, and well-lit rooms, I can't see a difference in prints between the two and neither can anyone else.  Maybe slightly less shadow detail with M9M, but doesn't really translate to prints (Epson 7800).  For pixel peeping (who cares?) the only difference I see is the obvious one of size, and deep shadows.

Where the two cameras diverge are dim/night lighting and "creature comforts" (including UI, size, layout, menu, LV, EVF, LCD, weather-sealing, etc.).

Hot pixels in shadows on M9M files just cannot be eliminated and shadow detail is lacking.

Creature comforts have been discussed elsewhere.  M10M the clear winner here, although there is something to be said about the familiarity of Henri.

Also, I am finding it requires more work to PP the M10M files and that's not a bad thing.  There is simply much more data in them, which requires a bit more work to get what I want.  I am finding that for some (not all) files, Lightroom is just not enough.  If I can't get it done in LR, I just pop over to SEFxP2.

Conclusion:  The M10M is a highly refined, pleasurable camera but the M9M remains extremely capable and is going to remain as a back-up camera, or as a second camera for reportage when I need 2 lenses.  

[Wonzo]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Likaleica:

 SEFxP2.

What is this ?

[Tp2000]

26 minutes ago, Wonzo said:

What is this ?

Silver efex I suspect. 
 

[Wonzo]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Tp2000:

Silver efex I suspect. 
 

yes, definitely. I wasn`t aware of this shortcut, thank you!

[Likaleica]

1 hour ago, Wonzo said:

yes, definitely. I wasn`t aware of this shortcut, thank you!

yes

[fotografr]

3 hours ago, Wonzo said:

What is this ?

Silver Efex Pro 2, which is an excellent plug in to pair with all versions of the Leica Monochrom. For a few years it was offered free along with the rest of the Nik software package but now you have to purchase it.

[fotografr]

On 2/22/2020 at 10:05 PM, Jeff S said:

"That would be difficult as I don’t own the camera..."

"I use the forum regularly, but don't post pics..."

I have to say, Jeff, that it puzzles me how someone who doesn't have or use the M10M and who doesn't post pics here can tell someone who does use the camera and does post images that he is wrong in his depiction of how M10M images have to be processed in order to make them look good when posted here.

That kind of stretches credibility in my view.

Edited February 25, 2020 by fotografr

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, fotografr said:

I have to say, Jeff, that it puzzles me how someone who doesn't have or use the M10M and who doesn't post pics here can tell someone who does use the camera and does post images that he is wrong in his depiction of how M10M images have to be processed in order to make them look good when posted here.

That kind of stretches credibility in my view.

Why do you keep engaging this?  Twice I already said let's agree to disagree.  But the fact that you think my comments require ownership of the M10M, or to post pics here, only shows that you still don't understand the gist of my comments at all, which is broader in nature. I've used enough cameras and done enough processing and printing over 40 years, including ongoing use of a Monochrom, to have a grounded opinion on the issues I discussed.  As you agreed earlier, although that now seems disingenuous,  I have every right to express my opinions.  For the third time, let's move on.

Jeff

Edited February 25, 2020 by Jeff S

[Herr Barnack]

On 2/22/2020 at 8:02 AM, shirubadanieru said:

Reporting back after using the camera a bit more:

1) I am definitely happier with the output than I was in the beginning, and feel my editing has also gotten better
2) I feel I like the tonality more when shooting with a yellow filter; I also tried a orange filter but the effect was a bit too strong for my taste
3) My vintage lens from the 1950s definitely are much sharper wide open than with any other digital Leica; this is something I'm still getting used to and it has its pros/cons
4) ISO / Usability wise, the M10M is simply much better than the M9M, and a joy to use

In the end, even though I feel some nostalgia for the M9M I will keep the M10M as my only digital (hopefully long term) camera.

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts! Much appreciated : ) 

 

Editing and post processing are like previsualization, composition and capturing the decisive moment - honing those skills are is an evolutionary process.

[kuad82001]

CCD

[shirubadanieru]

19 hours ago, kuad82001 said:

CCD

CMOS? lol 🙃

[dkmoore]

On 3/6/2020 at 9:13 AM, shirubadanieru said:

CMOS? lol 🙃

CMOS and CCD. Aren’t we in a period of time in which everyone is accepted?

 

😎

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[shirubadanieru]

Of course lol the CCD comment just came out of the blue  with no extra context so I was just joking around hehe

[zoe]

This thread is so interesting and helpful that I hope it continues. I don't own either camera but I am about to make a purchase. Thanks to the contributors.