8-reel tank: 4x longer to pour in & and out chemical

[Einst_Stein]

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Compare to the 2-reel tank, it takes 4X more time to pour in chemical into the 8-reel tank. 
The bottom roll will start to develop (much?) earlier than the top rolls. Of course when pour out, it is reversed.
Is this a problem? 

Suggest the best practice?  
 

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[Tmx]

I prefer to pre-soak the film with water for 3 minutes as a first step however I have never had any issues without. 

[M.Hilo]

Yes, this takes too long.

I have the 5-reel/135mm (or 3 reel/120 film) Combina tanks, which take 2000cc each. Over the years I bought many of them, so I prepare the chemicals in the tanks and I load the reels into still another tank. With Combina the reels are placed on a stick. Then, in the dark, I take the stick with the reels out of the empty tank and place it into the tank with the developer. Takes a couple of seconds including closing the tank with its top. I turn on the light, start the clock and the development.

The Combina 1 reel and 2 reel tanks are okay to fill in the light . . .

The question is if your system has a stick for those eight reels . . .

 

[Pyrogallol]

Years ago I had a Paterson multi reel tank but rarely used it. You need bigger jugs for the chemicals and more space for hanging up the wet films etc and if you make a mistake you’ve spoilt more rolls of film in one go.

A tank that just takes two spirals is much more practical I think.

i don’t think the pouring in and out times make much difference in the development, unless the time is very short.

 

[250swb]

On 12/16/2019 at 5:48 AM, Einst_Stein said:

Compare to the 2-reel tank, it takes 4X more time to pour in chemical into the 8-reel tank. 
The bottom roll will start to develop (much?) earlier than the top rolls. Of course when pour out, it is reversed.
Is this a problem? 

Suggest the best practice?  
 

As has been suggested pre-soak the film and use a longer acting developer or increase the dilution of the one you have. If your dev times are typically in the 8 minutes range you won't see any difference if you work quickly. It's also best not to use an eight reel tank with eight reels in it, space above the top reel allows the developer, stop, or fixer to get everywhere quickly when the tank is inverted. To my mind it's the same for any tank, always use a tank one size bigger than the number of reels you are going to develop and never fill the tank all the way to the top with any of the chemicals, but still enough to amply cover the topmost reel. 

[otto.f]

On 12/16/2019 at 7:19 AM, Tmx said:

I prefer to pre-soak the film with water for 3 minutes as a first step however I have never had any issues without. 

Although pre-soak leads to softer negatives. 

[Tmx]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb otto.f:

Although pre-soak leads to softer negatives. 

Not at all. Have you ever pre-soaked your negatives? 

[otto.f]

37 minutes ago, Tmx said:

Not at all. Have you ever pre-soaked your negatives? 

Yes I mostly do. And with the old TriX, before 2008 ~, there was a significant difference. With sheet film, presoak is also very important to get even development over the whole big sheet.

But this is another subject than what OP asked

Edited December 19, 2019 by otto.f

[Tmx]

I am wondering because then you should know how to adjust the time - see the suggested procedure of 250swb. If one tests the film regarding ISO effectiveness it doesn’t matter anyway, because then the pre-soak is a part of total development time

[otto.f]

I can’t follow you; now you say you have to adjust your time with presoak, that is what I implied. 

[Tmx]

Just read my first post again. There is nothing about times, just about the procedure itself. It was your concern that the negatives are soft what is not true if you control your dev. chain.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Tmx

[Pyrogallol]

6 hours ago, otto.f said:

Yes I mostly do. And with the old TriX, before 2008 ~, there was a significant difference. With sheet film, presoak is also very important to get even development over the whole big sheet.

But this is another subject than what OP asked

Yes, I only use pre soak on sheet film. The pre soak also removes the purple stain from the anti halation backing on the Adox CHS100 I am still using, just developed two sheets of 5x4 now, just washing.

[otto.f]

11 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Yes, I only use pre soak on sheet film. The pre soak also removes the purple stain from the anti halation backing on the Adox CHS100 I am still using, just developed two sheets of 5x4 now, just washing.

Right, the purple stain however can be nasty on 35mm too. It requires longer fixing, that’s why I use two baths of fixing now. You never know how a purple film works with variable contrast printing.

Edited December 19, 2019 by otto.f

[adan]

On 12/15/2019 at 10:48 PM, Einst_Stein said:

Compare to the 2-reel tank, it takes 4X more time to pour in chemical into the 8-reel tank. 
The bottom roll will start to develop (much?) earlier than the top rolls. Of course when pour out, it is reversed.
Is this a problem? 

Suggest the best practice?  
 

Assuming you start your timer at the correct point, and empty the tank at the correct point, the pouring-in and pouring-out should cancel out.

Start timer - pour chemical in. Bottom roll receives developer immediately (time T), top roll receives developer at, say, T+20 sec.

Timer ends at, say, 10 minutes - pour chemical out. "Bottom "roll is immediately uncovered (10 minutes from time T), and "top" roll is finally uncovered at 10 minutes from time T+20 sec.

It would be good practice to use a slow-acting developer with times in the 10-minute range or longer, rather than fast-acting developer (say, HC-110B for 5 minutes) - just to make the pouring time (and any variations in that) a smaller percentage of total time.

Back in the day, mass processing with large tanks (square or cylindrical) was done "dip-and-dunk." There would be pre-filled developer, stop and fixer tanks of the same size/shape, side by side in a water bath. In the dark, the loaded film spools would be stacked, dry, on a long T-shaped rod outside the tank, and then plunged into the developer virtually all at once. The rod was also used for agitating the rolls ("up-down-up-down-twist") - a lot easier that trying to toss around a whole tall tank weighing a couple of kgs when filled. Back then one just stayed in the dark until a minute into the fixing step. (In an emergency, one could cap the developer tank between agitations to turn on the lights).

See: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/71030-REG/Kalt_NP10116_Stainless_Steel_Developing_Tank.html

(NB: with rectangular tanks, the film reels were stacked in racks or baskets): https://www.etsy.com/sg-en/listing/464999870/stainless-steel-developing-rack-for-35mm

Of course one can do a hybrid process - use the rack or T-rod just for loading and unloading the tank in the dark, and then cap the tank and agitate the whole thing in the light.

Edited December 19, 2019 by adan

[250swb]

5 hours ago, otto.f said:

Right, the purple stain however can be nasty on 35mm too. It requires longer fixing, that’s why I use two baths of fixing now. You never know how a purple film works with variable contrast printing.

You are arguing about absolutely nothing. If common sense doesn't enter the equation then you can argue from here to eternity. But the base stain doesn't make any difference at all to developing, pre-soak or not, however if it isn't washed out come the time for fixing you are in trouble in many other ways because it questions how effective your stop bath/wash process is.

Edited December 19, 2019 by 250swb

[otto.f]

8 hours ago, 250swb said:

But the base stain doesn't make any difference at all to developing,

Did I say that? Besides, I wasn’t arguing. You can say that I was digressing from the OP, but I do not see the need for the heat.

Kodak, april 2018:

With KODAK PROFESSIONAL T-MAX Films, fixer will be exhausted more rapidly than with other films. If negatives show a magenta (pink) stain after fixing, fixer may be near exhaustion, or fixing time is too short. If the stain is pronounced and irregular, refix the film in fresh fixer."

Edited December 20, 2019 by otto.f