SL2 - first (less talked about) impressions

[Chaemono]

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vor 27 Minuten schrieb thighslapper:

Now I've got copies and backups stored all over the place, including the cloud, solid state, HDD and several old computers scattered over various sites and countries.

Various countries makes sense.  In case one gets invaded, you can always fetch your images from another one. 😁

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[Agent M10]

3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Thanks, John.  I’ll try the stock strap, but if it doesn’t suit, I’ll check out the Benz.  With M bodies and tiny lenses, there is no concern walking around with lens protruding.  But with an SL/SL2 and big lens, e.g., 24-90, I’d be concerned with the front glass element sticking out there (as I don’t plan to use hood or filter when off tripod).  The SL 75 Summicron, which is my first native lens, is smaller and has a somewhat recessed front element, so less of an issue.  

Jeff

If you carry the camera "backwards," meaning over your shoulder with the lens facing the small of your back, you'll have a lot less issues. Carrying it this way protects the lens, and was the way many photojournalists carried their Ms back in the day.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Agent M10

[thighslapper]

2 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

If you carry the camera "backwards," meaning over your shoulder with the lens facing the small of your back, you'll have a lot less issues. Carrying it this way protects the lens, and was the way many photojournalists carried their Ms back in the day.

..... just beware of spring loaded/self closing doors and gates 

[snooper]

10 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Various countries makes sense.  In case one gets invaded, you can always fetch your images from another one. 😁

Does not solve the problem if the entire planet is invaded...

[Exodies]

I keep all my data in a constant flow using laser beams, sent to and reflected from Saturn.

[LocalHero1953]

11 hours ago, Agent M10 said:

If you carry the camera "backwards," meaning over your shoulder with the lens facing the small of your back, you'll have a lot less issues. Carrying it this way protects the lens, and was the way many photojournalists carried their Ms back in the day.

Hmm.....slipped in the rain coming down Clee Hill a few years ago with my camera in a canvas bag slung to my back. I landed on it. The M and lens were fine, but the soft tissue damage was painful......

Edited December 6, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[panoreserve]

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vor 22 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

The SL2, S1R, α7 III/IV „in ideal circumstances of reasonable light and similar subject matter, produce results that are indistinguishable.” 

The SL2 is a dream to use and shoot, though.  First, it’s smaller and more compact than the Lumix bodies but feels more solid than the Sony bodies.  Second, Pre-Focus is amazing and has afforded the camera with the SL primes the fastest and most precise single point focus I’ve seen.  Third, with that EVF and the Maestro III processor, looking through the viewfinder and holding down the shutter in Single Drive mode, you can “[...] see something happening and [...] bang away at it. Either you get what you saw or you get something else – [...].” 😁 

With the SL Summicrons, the SL2 feels like a modern age M, IMO.

Serious question - what do you mean with „Pre-Focus“ (in single point focus)?

[LocalHero1953]

12 hours ago, thighslapper said:

I've become rather paranoid after I started transferring my ever increasing photo catalogue to a large capacity NAS. I discovered a significant proportion of images were corrupted ..... all of which seems to have occurred over a 6 month period last year and is fairly random in distribution but appears to have affected images that I have accessed the most often ..... which basically are my best photos. There are bits missing and often a big red stripe down the middle. Quite how this can happen by just accessing the photos beats me, but was obviously a HDD issue and aggravated by Time Machine overwriting my back-ups with corrupted data. I finally managed to salvage a complete set of uncorrupted files by amalgamating multiple old copies on various drives going back to 1999 and images I'd downloaded onto my iPad during 2018. Now I've got copies and backups stored all over the place, including the cloud, solid state, HDD and several old computers scattered over various sites and countries. These days I make multiple copies, never delete originals and don't rely on entirely automated back up solutions. 

I feel your pain. I had a similar problem while trying to make Lightroom Classic and Lightroom CC work together to sync and edit photos stored both in the cloud and on my desktop (which Adobe advises you not to do). I found photos were progressively disappearing. I now keep the two systems separate (and local is only for backup). I was able to recover originals, but lost a lot of edits.

[LocalHero1953]

A question about Prefocus: do you find it consumes battery? In the dawn of the digital era I had a Nikon P&S that did something like this, and was a battery hog (and the continuous focusing was noisy)

Edited December 6, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb panoreserve:

Serious question - what do you mean with „Pre-Focus“ (in single point focus)?

Drive Mode ‘Single,’ AF Mode ‘Spot,’ Pre Focus ‘On.’  Try it. 

vor 5 Minuten schrieb LocalHero1953:

A question about Prefocus: do you find it consumes battery? In the dawn of the digital era I had a Nikon P&S that did something like this, and was a battery hog (and the continuous focusing was noisy)

Unfortunately, yes, it does.  Ideally, one carries two spare batteries now, while one spare suffices if Pre Focus is turned off.

[Agent M10]

15 hours ago, thighslapper said:

..... just beware of spring loaded/self closing doors and gates 

Yes, those always seem to pose a problem, and not just for the camera.

[thighslapper]

On 12/5/2019 at 7:38 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

I am seduced by the quality of the images in the SL2 image thread. This may be because the first users happen to be excellent photographers, and are exploiting the Summicron-SL lenses, but even allowing for the limitations of image presentation (compression, resolution) on the LUF they look to have attractive colour gradation and 'depth' (whatever that might mean). I'd like to hear from those who have plenty of experience with the SL and S1R about their feelings on how they compare: do you prefer the colours and general 'look' of SL2  to the others, or do you feel that all three, in ideal circumstances of reasonable light and similar subject matter, produce results that are indistinguishable (except, in the case of the SL, at big enlargement or cropping)?

Are you also seduced by the SL2 images? It's subjective opinions I want - there are a number of members here whose judgement I value!

Paul ...... I've run some careful comparisons today between the S1R and SL2 ..... I won't post any images as it isn't worth it at the resolutions available here and the differences are negligible. I used SL 16-35 and 24-90 lenses. Auto WB, f8, back button AF, Auto metering. 

Basically:

Level of Detail:   Identical

White Balance:  SL2 seems to produce slightly warmer images with AWB set (a difference of about 250-500k)

Colour Reproduction: I cannot see any difference at all once WB is corrected

Exposure:  On auto the S1R is about half a stop underexposed compared to the SL2 (with centre weighted metering)

Noise:   Unsurprisingly nil on both at 100 ISO and noise in shadow recovery is virtually non existent at +100 in LR. is  Once you get to 800 and above the S1R is about a stop noisier ...... accentuated by the fact that the SL2 files apply some automatic NR in LR on import whereas the S1R has zero. The differential in shadow recovery noise is less obvious at higher ISO's. I'm very noise averse, but even for very detailed landscape work I'd happily use the S1R at iso 800 and the SL2 at 1600 if I had to. 

So basically the camera image file output is identical apart from the higher ISO noise performance, presumably due to the SL2 sensor modifications capturing a bit more light. Anything else is down to various settings that once equalised in processing render any differences non existent....... or delusional beliefs manufactured by the user. 

Of course this is just my judgement and opinion ..... which may or may not be more critical than others. I'm of the often espoused belief the the 'Leica look' resides primarily in the lenses ..... and that it is the functional and ergonomic differences that set Leica cameras apart from other manufacturers. 

The SL2 is a better low light camera..... but otherwise the real choice is between features available and how you use the camera. IBIS seems equally effective and AF accurate and quick on both, with the SL2 edging out the S1R in lower light situations where it often won't lock on. I can't comment on AFc/Tracking as I never really use it. There are plenty of other things to compare which all boil down to individual preference and needs. That's why I'm more than happy to keep both cameras to use in slightly different situations, with the confidence that the resulting image quality is going to be stunning from both. 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by thighslapper

[SrMi]

8 hours ago, panoreserve said:

Serious question - what do you mean with „Pre-Focus“ (in single point focus)?

SL2 manual, page 108, chapter PRE FOCUS:

When the function is active, the camera carries out a continuous depth mapping in realtime before the actual focusing. That allows a pre-identification of possible focus points in a scene. It speeds up the autofocus function significantly.

It seems that the camera keeps focusing all the time, even if shutter button is not pressed.

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

Paul ...... I've run some careful comparisons today between the S1R and SL2 ..... I won't post any images as it isn't worth it at the resolutions available here and the differences are negligible. I used SL 16-35 and 24-90 lenses. Auto WB, f8, back button AF, Auto metering. 

Basically:

Level of Detail:   Identical

White Balance:  SL2 seems to produce slightly warmer images with AWB set (a difference of about 250-500k)

Colour Reproduction: I cannot see any difference at all once WB is corrected

Exposure:  On auto the S1R is about half a stop underexposed compared to the SL2 (with centre weighted metering)

Noise:   Unsurprisingly nil on both at 100 ISO and noise in shadow recovery is virtually non existent at +100 in LR. is  Once you get to 800 and above the S1R is about a stop noisier ...... accentuated by the fact that the SL2 files apply some automatic NR in LR on import whereas the S1R has zero. The differential in shadow recovery noise is less obvious at higher ISO's. I'm very noise averse, but even for very detailed landscape work I'd happily use the S1R at iso 800 and the SL2 at 1600 if I had to. 

So basically the camera image file output is identical apart from the higher ISO noise performance, presumably due to the SL2 sensor modifications capturing a bit more light. Anything else is down to various settings that once equalised in processing render any differences non existent....... or delusional beliefs manufactured by the user. 

Of course this is just my judgement and opinion ..... which may or may not be more critical than others. I'm of the often espoused belief the the 'Leica look' resides primarily in the lenses ..... and that it is the functional and ergonomic differences that set Leica cameras apart from other manufacturers. 

The SL2 is a better low light camera..... but otherwise the real choice is between features available and how you use the camera. IBIS seems equally effective and AF accurate and quick on both, with the SL2 edging out the S1R in lower light situations where it often won't lock on. I can't comment on AFc/Tracking as I never really use it. There are plenty of other things to compare which all boil down to individual preference and needs. That's why I'm more than happy to keep both cameras to use in slightly different situations, with the confidence that the resulting image quality is going to be stunning from both. 

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. Sean Reid compared SL2 and S1R and his tests do not any difference in noise (up to ISO 6400). Did you use the same LR setting for both (noise reduction to 0 )?

According to S1R manual, it is not clear to me if S1R's IBIS can work together with Leica's OIS, or do you have to choose one or the other. What is your IS setting on S1R? Did you notice any difference in IS behavior.

S1R has ISO 50 marked as extended (though some claim it is real ISO), while SL does not. Have you compared ISO 50 shots between the two cameras?

Thanks!

[Chaemono]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

SL2 manual, page 108, chapter PRE FOCUS:

When the function is active, the camera carries out a continuous depth mapping in realtime before the actual focusing. That allows a pre-identification of possible focus points in a scene. It speeds up the autofocus function significantly.

It seems that the camera keeps focusing all the time, even if shutter button is not pressed.

Edit - repeating what was stated in the manual. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Chaemono

[SrMi]

Just now, Chaemono said:

It is and one could phrase it this way.  I think, the camera keeps doing the calculations and focuses the lens closer to where the mapping implies the focus point will likely be.  This is huge because once the user actually chooses the focus point, by half pressing the shutter, for example, the motor doesn’t have to move the elements much to focus the lens.  It speeds up the AF speed meaningfully and eliminates hunting.  In a way, the lens is always ‘alert’ and hunts all the time. 

I think Pre Focus (same as Quick AF in Panasonic cameras?) can be useful when fastest focusing is necessary, e.g., toddler photography 😉. The disadvantage is that it uses more battery and apparently reduces EVF display quality. I would leave it off, unless one needs fastest focus.

[thighslapper]

58 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Thank you for sharing your experience. Sean Reid compared SL2 and S1R and his tests do not any difference in noise (up to ISO 6400). Did you use the same LR setting for both (noise reduction to 0 )?

According to S1R manual, it is not clear to me if S1R's IBIS can work together with Leica's OIS, or do you have to choose one or the other. What is your IS setting on S1R? Did you notice any difference in IS behavior.

S1R has ISO 50 marked as extended (though some claim it is real ISO), while SL does not. Have you compared ISO 50 shots between the two cameras?

Thanks!

Same NR settings (0)....... if viewed 2:1 on a 5k screen there is clearly a stop or so difference between the cameras at 800 and above and the gap possibly widens the higher you go. At 800/1600 noise is unobtrusive and less noticeable, but still visible at 1:1. NR to eliminate it does noticeably reduce fine detail contrast on screen, but I suspect at A2 or less print sizes you may be hard pushed to notice it. 

I used iso 100 for both cameras ...... never used 50 on the S1R and doubt I'll bother with it on the SL2. 

IBIS on my S1R has been set on 'body' and on all the time. With SL lenses you only have the choice of IBIS or OIS and IBIS is always better. With native Lumix lenses it defaults to IBIS+OIS with this menu setting anyway, so there is no point changing it. SL2 IBIS seems as effective as on the S1R. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by thighslapper

[Chaemono]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

I think Pre Focus (same as Quick AF in Panasonic cameras?) can be useful when fastest focusing is necessary, e.g., toddler photography 😉. The disadvantage is that it uses more battery and apparently reduces EVF display quality. I would leave it off, unless one needs fastest focus.

Personally, I love the idea that when I raise the camera and look through the viewfinder that the camera has already pre-identified possible focus points in a scene and moved the focus closer to where the actual focus point will be.  And it’s not just an idea, the autofocus is significantly faster with Pre Focus On and allows for a virtually lag-free shutter release.  It makes operating the camera faster, more fluid, a pleasure, a pure joy to use.  One would need to have experienced the occasional hunting, the slight wait before focus had been acquired with the original SL in order to appreciate Pre Focus, I guess.

On degrading the EVF, not in my SL2.  I checked with Pre Focus On an Off, EVF quality is the same.  Again, I have no idea what some people are seeing. 

On power consumption, yes, Pre Focus eats battery power.  Not a big deal, IMO, just carry one additional spare.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Chaemono

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[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Personally, I love the idea that when I raise the camera and look through the viewfinder that the camera has already pre-identified possible focus points in a scene and moved the focus closer to where the actual focus point will be.  And it’s not just an idea, the autofocus is significantly faster with Pre Focus On and allows for a virtually lag-free shutter release.  It makes operating the camera faster, more fluid, a pleasure, a pure joy to use.  One would need to have experienced the occasional hunting, the slight wait before focus had been acquired with the original SL in order to appreciate Pre Focus, I guess.

On degrading the EVF, not in my SL2.  I checked with Pre Focus On an Off, EVF quality is the same.  Again, I have no idea what some people are seeing. 

On power consumption, yes, Pre Focus eats battery power.  Not a big deal, IMO, just carry one additional spare.

You explained your use case well, thanks. I use back-button focusing combined with Spot/Field focus metering. This means that I do not have shutter lag and my focus point is not always in focus. Pre-focus overrides back-button focusing, if I understand it correctly, and will always 'prepare' to have area under focus point in focus. Is that correct?

[Chaemono]

vor einer Stunde schrieb SrMi:

Pre-focus overrides back-button focusing, if I understand it correctly, and will always 'prepare' to have area under focus point in focus. Is that correct?

Yes, a lens will continue to hunt as one moves the camera.  Moving the camera is like scanning the scene.  One can actually hear the lens motor working.  It can be annoying to some but I like it because it makes AF faster.  This is not the case with the 90 Summicron-SL, BTW.  This lens doesn't seem to pre-focus at all.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Chaemono