Why do my images open in 8 bit

[Deliberate1]

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Friends, as I began to go through images from a recent trip to Turkey, I discovered, as they opened in the Photoshop RAW processor, that they were identified as in 8 bit. And when they opened in the main program, it was the same. I have never experienced this before. Only 16 bit files have come out my camera so far as I know, and I have always taken this for granted without considering this before shooting. I did not see anything in the camera settings that would account for this. Thus, my first question is whether there is such a setting that may have been activated. If not, what would explain this phenomenon.

And my second question is whether it makes any sense to convert these 8 bit to 16 bit images in Photoshop before processing. I rather assumed that an image had to be worked in the bit mode it was shot. But there is a way to do that 8 to 16 bit conversion in Photoshop. But there is no sense in creating a file double the size unless it matters. 

Much obliged for any insight into this conundrum

David

[Stuart Richardson]

When the camera raw window opens, at the bottom there is a place where you can select the bit rate and color space you want to work in. Generally to get the most out of processing with a camera like the S, you want to choose a wider gamut color space like ProPhotoRGB and set it to 16bit. I think adobe as a standard has the files open as 8 bit Adobe RGB. Lightroom has 16bit ProphotoRGB (well, actually something called Melissa) as their standard. 16bit makes a difference particularly in terms of better reproducing tonality in smooth color gradations. You gain a bit of subtlety in those situations, and are less likely to see "stepping", where the color makes a harsh jump between two shades. 16bit is also more useful for black and white, as in 8 bit each pixel is one of 256 shades of gray, but in 16bit it is one of 65,536 shades of gray. The more you push your file after conversion, the more important it is to have 16bit. If you make your raw conversion and the image looks good without more editing and you do not plan to need that particular file as a master later, keeping it at 8 bit is certainly fine.

[helged]

7 hours ago, Deliberate1 said:

Friends, as I began to go through images from a recent trip to Turkey, I discovered, as they opened in the Photoshop RAW processor, that they were identified as in 8 bit. And when they opened in the main program, it was the same. I have never experienced this before. Only 16 bit files have come out my camera so far as I know, and I have always taken this for granted without considering this before shooting. I did not see anything in the camera settings that would account for this. Thus, my first question is whether there is such a setting that may have been activated. If not, what would explain this phenomenon.

And my second question is whether it makes any sense to convert these 8 bit to 16 bit images in Photoshop before processing. I rather assumed that an image had to be worked in the bit mode it was shot. But there is a way to do that 8 to 16 bit conversion in Photoshop. But there is no sense in creating a file double the size unless it matters. 

Much obliged for any insight into this conundrum

David

If you compare the file size of the (possible) 8 bit images with previous 16-bit images, are there any differences? If not, the files have the same bit depth, and the problem is related to the RAW converter as @Stuart Richardson describes above. (Looking forward seeing your (16-bit processed) images...!) 

[Deliberate1]

5 hours ago, helged said:

If you compare the file size of the (possible) 8 bit images with previous 16-bit images, are there any differences? If not, the files have the same bit depth, and the problem is related to the RAW converter as @Stuart Richardson describes above. (Looking forward seeing your (16-bit processed) images...!) 

Yes, the file size in PS is about 107mb for the 8 bit, and normally about twice that for the 16 bit. 

 

[helged]

7 minutes ago, Deliberate1 said:

Yes, the file size in PS is about 107mb for the 8 bit, and normally about twice that for the 16 bit. 

 

What about the size of the files before uploading to PS (from 'Finder' on Mac or similar on a pc)?  Problems if the file size on the camera's memory card is half of ordinary size, otherwise you set the bit-depth to 16 bit when importing the raw files to PS - and everything should be fine.

[Deliberate1]

7 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

When the camera raw window opens, at the bottom there is a place where you can select the bit rate and color space you want to work in. Generally to get the most out of processing with a camera like the S, you want to choose a wider gamut color space like ProPhotoRGB and set it to 16bit. I think adobe as a standard has the files open as 8 bit Adobe RGB. Lightroom has 16bit ProphotoRGB (well, actually something called Melissa) as their standard. 16bit makes a difference particularly in terms of better reproducing tonality in smooth color gradations. You gain a bit of subtlety in those situations, and are less likely to see "stepping", where the color makes a harsh jump between two shades. 16bit is also more useful for black and white, as in 8 bit each pixel is one of 256 shades of gray, but in 16bit it is one of 65,536 shades of gray. The more you push your file after conversion, the more important it is to have 16bit. If you make your raw conversion and the image looks good without more editing and you do not plan to need that particular file as a master later, keeping it at 8 bit is certainly fine.

Stuart, obliged for yours. I am not in front of my photo computer but think I might know the answer, based on your analysis. My work flow typically take me to LR first. I have it configured, just as you say, with ProPhoto (16 bit). After I am done mucking about there, I have LR send the file to PS. It will arrive as 16bit in PS, and I muck about some more.

But I did things differently yesterday, which prompted my question, and the workflow issue. I was actually culling images in Bridge, which opens them in the RAW program, which designated them as 8 bit, both in the RAW processor and, subsequently, when opened in PS. What I will have to do is to make the same setting in the PS RAW processor, as I did in LR (ProPhotoRGB), so that the images open with 16bit in PS.

So it leads me to the final piece of the puzzle, which is whether an 8bit file exported from the RAW processor to PS, and is then converted to 16bit in PS is truly a 16 bit file. Surely, the file size doubles. Otherwise put, it appears that the RAW file is agnostic with respect to bit depth as it comes out of the camera. The bit depth is first applied either in LR or RAW processor. If assigned an 8 bit depth (default) in the RAW processor, is that file, once "transformed" into a 16bit file in PS, truly a 16bit file, like the ProPhotoRGB that I get out of LR. The fact that the file size doubles suggests to me that the bit depth is doubled as well. But I have been led astray more times that I can fathom by common sense.

Thanks for your continued interest.

David

[Deliberate1]

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1 minute ago, helged said:

What about the size of the files before uploading to PS (from 'Finder' on Mac or similar on a pc)?  Problems if the file size on the camera's memory card is half of ordinary size, otherwise you set the bit-depth to 16 bit when importing the raw files to PS - and everything should be fine.

I am not sure how to find that information on a PC. And, again, I never seen an option in the camera menu (either 006 or 007) that permits adjustment of the bit depth - only the file type (DNG vs. jpg). Consequently, I do not think the images come out with a native bit depth, and that it is assigned in LR or PS.

Or I am totally wrong.

David

[frame-it]

on windows just right click on the image in explorer and see the properties.

[geetee1972]

It's worth noting that Capture One opens files in their native bit depth and then allows you to export them either as 8 bit or 16 bit TIFF. That's just one reason to favour Capture One, there are others as well.

[jaapv]

You have the default settings in ACR wrong. You have the link to the settings directly under your image.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Deliberate1 said:

S

So it leads me to the final piece of the puzzle, which is whether an 8bit file exported from the RAW processor to PS, and is then converted to 16bit in PS is truly a 16 bit file. Surely, the file size doubles. Otherwise put, it appears that the RAW file is agnostic with respect to bit depth as it comes out of the camera. The bit depth is first applied either in LR or RAW processor. If assigned an 8 bit depth (default) in the RAW processor, is that file, once "transformed" into a 16bit file in PS, truly a 16bit file, like the ProPhotoRGB that I get out of LR. The fact that the file size doubles suggests to me that the bit depth is doubled as well. But I have been led astray more times that I can fathom by common sense.

Thanks for your continued interest.

David

No, it is not the same The bits that you add to an 8-bit file are empty. However even this will help prevent posterizing. The bit depth you set in raw processing in ACR will follow the native camera output. (often 14 bits, sometimes 12 bits), even if you set a higher bit depth. That means 2 or 4 empty bit levels.

[Deliberate1]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

You have the default settings in ACR wrong. You have the link to the settings directly under your image.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

You are correct. I have the proper 16 bit setting in LR, but not in PS/ACR. 

Your explanation re: bit depth makes sense. Much obliged.

Regards,

David

Edited November 25, 2019 by Deliberate1

[jaapv]

No, as soon as you move to 8 bits the image loses half its bit depth. If you convert to 16 bits again the only thing that happens is that you create empty bits.

See bit depth as a row of buckets. When you reduce 16 buckets to 8 the water from the ones you are removing must be poured into the neighbouring 8. When you add 8 buckets afterwards, you cannot separate the water that was in the original buckets, you will just have empty buckets between the full ones.

The only advantage you create is that you will use the empty buckets  to pour surplus water in, instead of mixing it up further. (mixing is posterizing when shifting the colours around), the empty buckets prevent further contamination.

The same goes for colour spaces. As soon as you move to a smaller space the out-of-gamut colours are cut off or shifted, Moving up to a larger colour space afterwards will not restore them.

[Stuart Richardson]

Jaap has it exactly right. Once you toss out the information (by going to 8 bits or to a smaller color space), you never get it back. You might also want to look at your Bridge settings...Bridge is a "legacy" piece of software for Adobe...they continue making it because it works for certain people's workflows, but it is not really being actively developed or updated. They clearly think Lightroom and Photoshop are their main photography and photo management programs. In general, it is probably best to do as much as possible in Lightroom or camera raw, and then do any finishing touches in PS. Best not to go back and forth all that much. If that is your preference, it might be better to open the files as smart objects in PS and use the camera raw filter. Then at least you can go back and adjust things without modifying the pixels as you go. 

[jaapv]

Actually Bridge was updated to Bridge 2020 last week...

[Stuart Richardson]

I have not looked! It seemed totally dead to me at this point...my error. Still, looking at the changes, they seem very minor...getting rid of a few things for Mojave adding a minor feature or two and changing some interface aspects. It does not really seem that different than it did 5 years ago. Anyway, clearly Adobe is more focused on Lightroom (and even then, more on the cloud version than Classic). 

[Tom Johnston]

Thank you jaapv for pointing out the ProPhoto RGB. I had overlooked that setting.

Once designated, is it then embedded in the raw converter for both PS and LR, or is there an adjustment or preference setting for Camera RAW?

thank you.

[jaapv]

LR assigns its own parameters. The setting I pointed out is for Photoshop.

[Tom Johnston]

In re-reading my question I realize it isn't clear what I was asking.

I was able to change the raw setting in PS to ProPhoto RGB. But what I'm curious about, is there a way to designate this profile in LR specifically?

Or does LR use the parameters as designated in PS when importing?

 

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[jaapv]

LR works completely differently You apply the edits on the fly without influencing the original raw. Only when you hit "export" will LR do the final conversion and apply the edits. You don't want to use ProPhoto for your final export; there are no printers and only very few - very expensive- monitors that can handle the colourspace.. Even Adobe RGB is sometimes too much for lower-specified output gear.

In fact, basically Lightroom is ACR with a different UI and some added features.