M8 Frame Line Accuracy

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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I just spent 5 hours in the Arizona sun and 105 degree heat with the M8's shooting away and once again nailed everything down in sight and performed like it should except i did get some AWB variance. Not fixed and e-mail being sent

[adan]

1. I've said this before, but obviously it will need repeating every time one of these frameline posts pops up.

 

There is a very simple reason why the 75 frames are more "off" than the others at ~infinity - the 75mm lenses focus substantially closer and tighter at their minimum focus than any other M lens for their focal length, and therefore have more "lens extension zoom" effect - and therefore their lines corrected for .7 meters are more different than the infinity framing than are other framelines.

 

50mm lens focuses down to .7 meters, or 14x the focal length

90mm lens focuses down to 1 meter, or 11x the focal length

75mm f/2 lens focuses to .7 meters or just 9.33x the focal length

 

2. If YOU have to crop an M8 image a little to get the exact framing you want, at least you have the option. If the M8 framelines were accurate at infinity (but inaccurate everywhere else) the camera cropping would leave NO option - it would be permanently cutting off important information in the final image that appears inside the framelines. A bad failure mode.

 

3. I almost always use my 50mm lens at distances of 1.5 meters or LESS - so I need closeup framing accuracy first and foremost. I have yet to see a 50mm or 75mm image shot at more than 2 meters (with the M8) that is worth all the fuss - these are 'intimate' focal lengths and SHOULD be used only in the close range, IMHO, to avoid boredom.

 

4. Leica has offered frameline "swaps" for 40 years or so - ever since the 4-line M4 set replaced the 3-line M2 set. Presumably they already have a set price for the modification, and will be happy to profitablly do as many as the market requires.

 

(Hmm - wonder if the new Summarits are actually 37, 55, 80, and 95mm lenses (with, you'll note, limits on the close focusing end) just so that they'll crop a bit closer to the frameline framing...???)

[ho_co]

It took me three tries to get this truck out of the picture. Not that I am happy to hear that the frame lines aren't accurate, but I am happy to know that I am not an idiot with the camera.

Terry--

1) See Sean's reference on frame lines, or any of a lot of discussions on this forum. Frame lines for a rangefinder can in general be accurate only at one given distance. The problem we're complaining about is that the ones in the M8 seem to allow greater disparity between what we see and what we get than in previous cameras.

 

2) Since many rangefinder lenses block the lower right portion of the finder, you need to be specifically aware of that corner when you shoot. It comes with the territory, and after your initial frustration, you're now on the road to conquering that element.

 

3) You? An idiot? Never! You chose a Leica M! No idiot could do that!

 

--HC

[TEBnewyork]

Thanks,

Actually, the only reason I took that shot was because over the course of the previous two days I had botched some shots with the 75 as to what was going to be in the frame. The lens wasn't cutting off my view of the corner. I was specifically trying to see how far outside the framelines something had to be to not be included. I was really quite close to the 50 frame lines. That shot is not my typical use for the 75. All my other 75 shots were of people.

 

I also realize I have more personal work to do to "get it" because close up I almost felt the opposite that I got less in the frame than I was expecting which now makes sense based on the above information on the distance the frame lines are optimized for.

[carstenw]

I believe that the framelines are designed to always include everything. This would need to be confirmed, but if you felt you were missing something, you should probably check it out carefully to make sure that you are right.

 

I will try to put together a series of tests on frameline coverage today, to see how bad the situation really is.

[TEBnewyork]

I believe that the framelines are designed to always include everything. This would need to be confirmed, but if you felt you were missing something, you should probably check it out carefully to make sure that you are right.

 

I will try to put together a series of tests on frameline coverage today, to see how bad the situation really is.

 

I think I wrote my last post poorly. I didn't mean at close up what was captured was actually less than what the frame lines showed. It was more that a few times I've been surprised at what I thought my framing was vs. what the shot looked like when I downloaded it.

 

My two favorite M8 shots are with both with the 75.

 

It is interesting though that from where I've taken some (distance from the subject) of my shots the 50 frame lines have a lot of appeal but I need to work at my shooting a bit more before I just buy another lens.

[sean_reid]

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I'd have to test to be sure but I think the M8's 90 mm frame lines may have been set for a distance of one meter rather than .7 meters. (The current Leica 90s don't focus that close anyway). That's just a hunch right now but the 90 frame lines seem, to me, to be more accurate at distance than are those for the 75. I'll ask Leica about this.

 

Of all the frame lines, I find those of the 75 to be the most problematic.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

My hunch was correct! <G> The 90 mm frame lines in the M8 (and only those lines) *are* set for a one meter focusing distance. I don't think Leica has published that anywhere (to my knowledge) but a Leica M8 engineer confirmed it for me today.

 

Therefore, the 90 lines are more accurate at most distances than the 75 lines. This seemed like it had to be true based on what I've experienced testing all these 90s this summer. It certainly makes me hanker for 1 meter frame lines for all the lenses (ie: the old days).

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I have yet to see a 50mm or 75mm image shot at more than 2 meters (with the M8) that is worth all the fuss - these are 'intimate' focal lengths and SHOULD be used only in the close range, IMHO, to avoid boredom.

 

Hi Andy,

 

Interesting post but I strongly disagree with the above. There has been a lot of strong work done with M cameras + 50/75 mm lenses at distances greater than seven feet. Boredom is not dictated by subject distance and I think there are no rules whatsoever about these sorts of things. I believe there's no "should" therefore, in this case.

 

Very few pictures are truly interesting but subject distance, generally speaking, does not make or break pictures (considered on the whole).

 

Best,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Terry--

 

2) Since many rangefinder lenses block the lower right portion of the finder, you need to be specifically aware of that corner when you shoot. It comes with the territory, and after your initial frustration, you're now on the road to conquering that element.

 

--HC

 

Hi Howard,

 

And/or one favors lenses that do not block the frame lines. That's my preference.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I believe that the framelines are designed to always include everything. This would need to be confirmed, but if you felt you were missing something, you should probably check it out carefully to make sure that you are right.

 

I will try to put together a series of tests on frameline coverage today, to see how bad the situation really is.

 

Cool, thanks Carsten. I think you might be pleased when you see how much better the 90 lines are compared to the 75.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[ho_co]

My hunch was correct! <G> The 90 mm frame lines in the M8 (and only those lines) *are* set for a one meter focusing distance. I don't think Leica has published that anywhere (to my knowledge) but a Leica M8 engineer confirmed it for me today.

Thanks for the information. Clearly an exception to what they say in the manual, and not like "the old Leica."

 

Similarly the mis-statement in the instructions (p 87) that the 'enlargement factor' has no effect on a lens's depth of field.

 

No gross error in either case, but unaccustomed sloppiness.

 

Gee. First Genesis, and now Leica. Whom can we trust? "Mere anarchy is loosed upon the land."

 

--HC

[carstenw]

I have yet to see a 50mm or 75mm image shot at more than 2 meters (with the M8) that is worth all the fuss - these are 'intimate' focal lengths and SHOULD be used only in the close range, IMHO, to avoid boredom.

 

That is the most bizarre statement I have seen yet on this forum. There are lots of uses for the various focal lengths.

[sean_reid]

Thanks for the information. Clearly an exception to what they say in the manual, and not like "the old Leica."

--HC

 

Hi Howard,

 

Yes, also an exception to what the M8 press materials said. Somewhere in writing all this text, someone(s) forgot that the 90 frame lines were done differently.

 

And yet, this difference is abundantly clear when one shoots with the Leica 90s on the M8. I don't usually use 90s much so, during my testing, I kept being surprised by how closely the capture was actually matching the frame line area. I kept framing for a kind of looseness that wasn't actually needed.

 

Its good news to my ears.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[carstenw]

Strange that they did this, given that the 90 Macro focuses closer than 1m, even without the adapter. Had they only done it for all of them!

[thrid]

We've been over this a thousand times.

 

No one is asking for the accuracy of an SLR.

 

But the M8 framelines are worse than anything we have seen in previous M cameras.

I have yet to meet someone who doesn't have an issue with this and apparently Leica

got an earful about this from their beta testers.

 

Leica needs to recalculate the frameline mask or come up with a different solution to this problem. We need the same framing accuracy we had in cameras like the M4, which could be termed "acceptably accurate".

 

How Leica gets there is their problem to solve, but it is something they must do.

[adan]

That is the most bizarre statement I have seen yet on this forum. There are lots of uses for the various focal lengths.

 

Any more bizarre than this quote from the original post?

 

"Most images taken with the M8 will be at distances from 3 meters to infinity - why optimize the finder for the closest distance with the narrowest field of view?"

 

I'll admit to having gone a bit over the top - mostly in response to that original statement. But I will repeat that I - personally - have yet to see many strong images taken with 50/75 lenses and the M8 (Other Ms don't count, because the difference in effective cropping) at distances over 2 meters. I just haven't. 90/135 over 2 meters, yes, many. 50/75 UNDER 2 meters, yes, many.

 

Interesting news about the 90 frames...

[charlesphoto99]

We've been over this a thousand times.

 

No one is asking for the accuracy of an SLR.

 

But the M8 framelines are worse than anything we have seen in previous M cameras.

I have yet to meet someone who doesn't have an issue with this and apparently Leica

got an earful about this from their beta testers.

 

Leica needs to recalculate the frameline mask or come up with a different solution to this problem. We need the same framing accuracy we had in cameras like the M4, which could be termed "acceptably accurate".

 

How Leica gets there is their problem to solve, but it is something they must do.

 

I agree. It's really frustrating, esp for those migrating from film M's.

[doubice]

Any more bizarre than this quote from the original post?

 

"Most images taken with the M8 will be at distances from 3 meters to infinity - why optimize the finder for the closest distance with the narrowest field of view?"

 

I'll admit to having gone a bit over the top - mostly in response to that original statement. But I will repeat that I - personally - have yet to see many strong images taken with 50/75 lenses and the M8 (Other Ms don't count, because the difference in effective cropping) at distances over 2 meters. I just haven't. 90/135 over 2 meters, yes, many. 50/75 UNDER 2 meters, yes, many.

 

Interesting news about the 90 frames...

 

Dear Andy,

 

I am sorry that you find my statement 'bizarre'...... From the responses you received to your post about lack of "strong images" at distances over 2 meters I am afraid that you are in a minority. While I respect your choice of shooting distances, maybe you could extend the same kind of respect to the rest of Leica users, who shoot 'weak images' at distances over 2 meters.

 

With my film M's I have shot slide film exclusively and have never had an issue with framing - at close, medium or far distances. I think you will agree that framing slides is quite a lot more critical and I have never had a problem with previous Leica finders (M2, M3, M4, M5 and the ones I still use - M6 and M7). And - I have been using Leica since mid-1960's, Leica M's since early 1970's - maybe I speak with some knowledge......

 

Please read the OP - I have originally dismissed the early grievances about the poor framing, until I bought the M8 and realized how inacurate the frames actually were.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jan

[adan]

Dear Jan - Well, perhaps we are both bizarre in favoring one end or the other of the focus range...as early responders have said, this subject seems to, hmm - ENHANCE - irritability all around. Truce.

 

I'm not thrilled with the relative inaccuracy of the longer framelines at longer distances, either. I'd just rather be safe at any subject distance, and have to crop now and then on longer shots, than lose something completely due to camera cropping that the framelines do not allow for.

 

You mention slides - and this may be where Leica slipped up. Slide mounts crop slightly from the total image captured on film, and Leica designed the film M frames with that cropping in mind. It has been suggested in previous posts that Leica forgot to remove the "slide-mount safety net" in calculating the M8 line dimensions.

 

Certainly the 75 lines, between the difference in close-up range, the possibility of extra looseness left over from the slide era, the minimalist corners, and the proximity of the 50mm lines - are very frustrating.

 

One other note:

 

Sean - it suddenly occurs to me that "of course" the 90mm framelines are set to be accurate for one meter, unlike all the others - one meter IS the minimum focus for 90mm M lenses (except perhaps the Macro). Whereas everything wider than a 90 (except for some older designs) focuses to .75 or .7 meters - and have framelines adjusted to match THOSE minimum focus distances.

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