M8 Frame Line Accuracy

[doubice]

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I know this issue has been covered on this forum - I am not only surprised but, also disenchanted with the accuracy of the M8’s frame lines. When I read the initial posts on the subject, I discounted them as “who cares, we’re not shooting slides - its easy to crop with digital;”. This was however, before the M8 was in my hands……

 

I am not a new M user in the least; you name it, I owned it or still own it and have been using M’s almost exclusively since early 1970’s. So - it is not as if I was used to SLR’s and new to rangefinders. I understand about parallax and reduced field of view at close distances, and know that the M8’s frame lines were optimized for view at 1 meter distance (or thereabouts).

 

My question is WHY?? Most images taken with the M8 will be at distances from 3 meters to infinity - why optimize the finder for the closest distance with the narrowest field of view?

 

Yesterday I shot some party pictures of a friend in black dress and ended up with …well…. you know what. No filters yet - they’re on the way…..

 

The framing is really the only issue I have with the M8, it is a truly superb instrument. Why those frame lines?

 

Best,

 

Jan

[ho_co]

Jan--

You're right, this has been discussed. And discussed. And discussed. You are not crying in the wind; M8 owners have noticed it.

 

Two things:

1) Suck it up! You'll get used to it! Seriously, you've adjusted to parallax and varying field of view etc. But this one is annoying as the dickens; however, notice how few people there are complaining at the moment--not because the problem has gotten better, but because we've learned to live with it.

 

2) Guy Mancuso reported from Germany that a different set of finder frames will be made available as a kind of M8 à la carte offering. Details not yet announced.

 

(You'll notice that although I'm telling you not to worry about it, Leica has heard from enough people who agree with you that they're going to make a fix available. )

 

 

And yes, it's definitely a heck of a camera!

 

--HC

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[doubice]

Howard,

 

Thanks for your commiseration !

 

I do recall reading Guy's post about the possibility of an a la carte version. Unfortunately, I have bought the camera already, so ordering another a la carte version would not sit very well with my wife. She thinks that I paid "about US$4,500" for the M8 and by doing so I saved lots of $$$$ because I beat a price increase.....

 

Whenever I hear 'Leica a la carte' , my bank accounts freeze and my wallet goes on strike.

 

You are probably correct; I'll get used to it. If not, my accessory cabinet has a whole bunch of old finders which will no doubt help. I knew there was a future for the Imarect and the 28mm - 180mm TEWE finders I have been holding on to for decades......

 

All the best,

 

Jan

[hankg]

however, notice how few people there are complaining at the moment--not because the problem has gotten better, but because we've learned to live with it.

 

That's because there is nothing more to say, it's all been repeated in detail many times. That doesn't mean those who raised the issue think it's OK now. It's just that it's now in Leica's hands and there is not much more to be said.

[ho_co]

Whenever I hear 'Leica a la carte' , my bank accounts freeze and my wallet goes on strike.

LOL! Same here, as does my reason.

 

But it's quite possible that the finder-exchange (as I imagine it will be) may be doable on existing cameras.

 

Or, with the rumored October 1 additional price increase, you could buy another one (other finish, of course) now, saving so much that you can later afford to get the frame update.

 

Of course, that reasoning takes some special practice before presenting it in public (or private).

 

--HC

[photoarne]

doubice wrote: My question is WHY?? Most images taken with the M8 will be at distances from 3 meters to infinity - why optimize the finder for the closest distance with the narrowest field of view?

 

You're right. It's an idiotic choice (treating M8 owners as imbeciles "to be on the safe side"). What they *should* have done done was to optimize the frames for a distance of 3 to 5 meters and informing customers that at infinity you calculate slightly inside the frame and at close range slightly outside. Now we are more or less at sea unless we shoot at the closest distance. With the modest number of Mpx of the M8 we don't want to waste more than absolutely necessary.

[JGW]

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I know this issue has been covered on this forum - I am not only surprised but, also disenchanted with the accuracy of the M8’s frame lines. When I read the initial posts on the subject, I discounted them as “who cares, we’re not shooting slides - its easy to crop with digital;”. This was however, before the M8 was in my hands……

 

I am not a new M user in the least; you name it, I owned it or still own it and have been using M’s almost exclusively since early 1970’s. So - it is not as if I was used to SLR’s and new to rangefinders. I understand about parallax and reduced field of view at close distances, and know that the M8’s frame lines were optimized for view at 1 meter distance (or thereabouts).

 

My question is WHY?? Most images taken with the M8 will be at distances from 3 meters to infinity - why optimize the finder for the closest distance with the narrowest field of view?

 

Yesterday I shot some party pictures of a friend in black dress and ended up with …well…. you know what. No filters yet - they’re on the way…..

 

The framing is really the only issue I have with the M8, it is a truly superb instrument. Why those frame lines?

 

Best,

 

Jan

 

Hello Jan,

This is the major fault with the M8 which still exists while most other problems have been solved. I noticed this fault as soon as I got my camera and I've mentioned it several times on other threads on this forum, once with posted photographs. It is a major design-problem and for me, and my way of working, it ruins the camera. I also wrote to Leica's Stefan Daniel in Germany who sent the reply which I put into this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/25682-good-news-leica-about-frame-line.html Many people had/have a lot to say about this if you follow it through; some people are right and some are misguided and don't understand. It obviously depends on the type of photography you like to do whether this is a major problem for you or not. If your work requires you to capture fleeting moments, then inaccurate framelines are very unhelpful, especially if you use peripheral vision while instinctively framing the subject, For an explanation of what is wrong I suggest you read the contributions from, thrid. I to am looking forward to the retro fitting of new framelines, but I'm not looking forward to what it will cost!

Best wishes,

JGW

[stunsworth]

My guess is that it's so that they can guarantee that no photograph will ever have part missing though being cropped out.

 

It's also possible that this allows the frame lines for the 24mm to be included in the viewfinder set.

[JGW]

My guess is that it's so that they can guarantee that no photograph will ever have part missing though being cropped out.

 

It's also possible that this allows the frame lines for the 24mm to be included in the viewfinder set.

 

...which means that all photographs will have more in that you didn't want. Even at closest focus of 70cm there is more image recorded than covered by these awful frames. they're just impossible and useless. Thank God that Leica have seen the error of their ways and have listened to those who are used to, and have used previous Ms for the reasons that they were known to be good, and are surprised at this unexpected discrepancy. If the frameline issue is improved, the next problem will be the noisy shutter. Then we will have a camera that is something like a Leica rangefinder would be expected to be. At the moment that camera still doesn't exist.

 

What's the point of framelines for a 24mm lens that don't show you what a 24mm lens covers? Or any other lens for that matter.

 

Sorry for the rant. I'm in a bad mood and still waiting for some well overdue clients to pay me; and somebody has reminded me how disappointed I am with this camera!

 

I know this issue has been flogged to death. We may as well leave it now and wait to see if it is solved.

 

JGW.

[woodda]

No accurucy, just guess and crop

[J_Brittenson]

My question is WHY?? Most images taken with the M8 will be at distances from 3 meters to infinity - why optimize the finder for the closest distance with the narrowest field of view?

Beats me. The framing with my Summicron 75 is abysmal, I've never had a RF so off in framing. It's like the left and upper edges match the outer lines while the right and lower edges match the inner lines. The 28mm lines are more reasonable though. But the 75mm isn't even ballpark.

[jaapv]

...which means that all photographs will have more in that you didn't want. Even at closest focus of 70cm there is more image recorded than covered by these awful frames. they're just impossible and useless. Thank God that Leica have seen the error of their ways and have listened to those who are used to, and have used previous Ms for the reasons that they were known to be good, and are surprised at this unexpected discrepancy. If the frameline issue is improved, the next problem will be the noisy shutter. Then we will have a camera that is something like a Leica rangefinder would be expected to be. At the moment that camera still doesn't exist.

 

What's the point of framelines for a 24mm lens that don't show you what a 24mm lens covers? Or any other lens for that matter.

 

Sorry for the rant. I'm in a bad mood and still waiting for some well overdue clients to pay me; and somebody has reminded me how disappointed I am with this camera!

 

I know this issue has been flogged to death. We may as well leave it now and wait to see if it is solved.

 

JGW.

 

 

Hmmm..... Noisy shutter. It might be hard to lop that minimal 1.3 DbA difference to the M7 off a recocking shutter.Or a metal one for that matter.

[JGW]

Jan--

You're right, this has been discussed. And discussed. And discussed. You are not crying in the wind; M8 owners have noticed it.

 

 

 

2) Guy Mancuso reported from Germany that a different set of finder frames will be made available as a kind of M8 à la carte offering. Details not yet announced.

 

 

 

--HC

 

Could somebody paste a link to this from Guy Mancuso please, I would quite like to read it.

Thanks,

JGW.

[ronaldh]

It is a significant defect

[sean_reid]

Howard,

 

Thanks for your commiseration !

 

I do recall reading Guy's post about the possibility of an a la carte version. Unfortunately, I have bought the camera already, so ordering another a la carte version would not sit very well with my wife. She thinks that I paid "about US$4,500" for the M8 and by doing so I saved lots of $$$$ because I beat a price increase.....

 

Whenever I hear 'Leica a la carte' , my bank accounts freeze and my wallet goes on strike.

 

You are probably correct; I'll get used to it. If not, my accessory cabinet has a whole bunch of old finders which will no doubt help. I knew there was a future for the Imarect and the 28mm - 180mm TEWE finders I have been holding on to for decades......

 

All the best,

 

Jan

 

Its possible that if Leica creates new frame line masks for the M8 (as options), these could be optionally retrofitted to existing cameras for a fee.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[ho_co]

Could somebody paste a link to this from Guy Mancuso please, I would quite like to read it.

Thanks,

JGW.

Uh-oh!

 

My error, and credit where credit is due: I mis-attributed the remark; it was yours in the thread you mentioned above, http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/25682-good-news-leica-about-frame-line.html.

 

Thanks for asking me to prove my assumption!

 

--HC

[doubice]

Its possible that if Leica creates new frame line masks for the M8 (as options), these could be optionally retrofitted to existing cameras for a fee.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I hope it happens soon, the M8 would than have to make just one trip to Allendale, kind of killing two birds with one stone: new frame lines and adjusting the vertical alignment on the rangefinder.....

 

Best,

 

jan

[sean_reid]

Alas, I wouldn't count on "soon".

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

It will be interesting to see how Leica wriggle out of making this a warranty repair/upgrade. I would have thought the last thing they want right now is thousands of M8s coming back to base for new frames to be fitted.

 

Here's a picture of the frame selector.

 

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The shaft in the centre moves up an down according to which frame is selected and the springs/adjustment screws ensure the correct frame is displayed according to the frame lever position.

 

You can see the frames are mounted on a carrier secured with two screws at the top. The silver cam at the bottom shifts the frames along a diagonal axis according to the position of the focussing cam and the adjustment screw turns the cam to set the parallax correction. Notice too the rather untidily applied blackout paint, presumably to damp down stray reflections.

 

The frames can be exchanged by removing just the top of the camera but it's still not the work of a moment.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wattsy]

Interesting how crudely made the rangefinder mechanism looks when opened up (and perhaps viewed at this kind of magnification). Nothing like the beautiful mechanisms you find inside a decent watch.