Hassy X1D ii + 80/F1.9 or SL2 + 50/F1.4

[ardbeg]

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I’m looking to invest in an autofocus system after years of shooting exclusively digital Ms. I will keep the M for street but aging eyesight and desire to eventually get some longer focal length primes are prompting the investment in a second system. Luggable weight profile is ok but  need for a system which has least amount of usability friction is paramount (e.g. Fuji GFXs do not meet that criteria for me). So, assuming SL2 specs are generally in line with rumors upon announcement this month and accepting this forum is naturally biased toward Leica, I welcome your thoughts. Thank you.

[Jeff S]

I am also weighing the SL2 and the X1Dii as a complement to my M cameras, with an emphasis on longer (and some wider) focal lengths, as well as zoom capability. My M use (M10 and Monochrom) is solely with RF, and mostly 28-50. (The M10 Monochrom will also likely tempt, for different reasons). 

I’ll ultimately decide by actually handling them and making pics and prints. Reviews and comments are nice, but nothing replaces using my own workflow to assess.  I’ve done that with the SL and X1D, so I’ll be looking for improvements and changes. There are many pros and cons for me between the systems.  I also didn’t bond with the Fuji digitals I tried.  

A lot will also come down to lens choices, current and projected, so I’ll be paying close attention to updated roadmaps.  Neither of the lenses you mention interest me, but that’s a personal choice.

Jeff

[ardbeg]

Regarding lenses, I always start with a fast “standard“ lens native to the system as I like that 50-60mm equivalent field of view. After that, a medium tele (like the Hassy 135 with the bundled converter). The SL 90-280 is a very nice lens but it is very large and I prefer primes and hope Leica eventually releases a 180 or slightly longer SL prime. 

[IkarusJohn]

I’m not sure what “usability friction” means as a selection criteria - is it haptics? Or do you mean reluctance to use?

If the SL2 has the same clean user interface of the current version, then I think it will be a fine camera.  I have both the X1D II and the SL, along with the 50 Summilux-SL and XCD 80/1.9.  Both are excellent in terms of image quality - the experts will probably say the Summilux is better for a host of reasons.  In use, I don’t really see a huge technical difference.  The Summilux is huge, but perfection comes at a price, I guess.  As a system, the Hasselblad is smaller and lighter in the hand.  Neither system is particularly fast (particularly AF), but that doesn’t bother me.

At this stage, I have the XCD 80 & 21 and will consider the 135 and 30 at some stage.

For me the difference is in haptics and format.

The SL, with its 4 button layout is fantastic, and intuitive.  But its menus are relatively deep and the camera is multi-functioned.  It’s a complex piece of equipment, presented cleanly and as simply as Leica can manage.  Conversely, the Hasselblad touch screen and menu system is fantastic - direct control from the screen of everything you need is brilliant.  If you don’t like the TL2 or cellphone touch screens, then the SL2 might be a better option - who knows, it’s all smoke and mirrors at this stage.  I prefer to wait for fact from the horse’s mouth.  When it was released, the SL was almost perfect, whereas the first iteration of the X1D was half-baked.  Most of that criticism had been addressed in the X1D II - I don’t see any differentiation between the SL and X1D II.  They’re just different.  I expect the SL2 to be a leap ahead of the X1D II, but only to a certain degree.  We’re guilding the lily at this point.

Format is the real point of difference for me - the 50MP Sony sensor in the X1D remains the reference sensor.  I’m not even remotely driven by the pixel race, and the trade-off in motion blur and noise remains a concern.  There is a benefit in the larger pixel pitch of the bigger sensor.

I’m not sure if this helps you.  The SL is overall a faster camera, but the X1D II more contemplative, in my view.  If the X1D II and XCD 80/1.9 was sitting beside the SL with the 50 Summilux-SL on my desk, I’m not sure which I would grab.  Instinctively, I’d probably take the X1D, but it’s newer.  The SL seems more robust (I’m not about to test that) - I’m going on a three day tramp with family in January.  The area gets 200 days of rain a year.  I’ll take the SL, 16-35 VE zoom and 75 Summicron-SL, I think.  My brother in law (a professional photographer) is taking a Huawei P40-pro ...

Edited November 2, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[verwackelt]

The downsides of the Hasselblad is the lack of a shutter in Body. You need native lenses with build in shutter or have to use the electronic shutter which has other downsides.
I would go for the L-Mount if you want to have more versatility in lens choices…
And the Hasselblad RAW developer Phocus is not everybody's darling…
I like C1 or LR much more…

 

[Jeff S]

42 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

If the SL2 has the same clean user interface of the current version, then I think it will be a fine camera. 

We’ll have to wait, but the pics leaked by Nokishita, which appear to be accurate, show otherwise; it’s more like the CL/Q interface.  We’ll see.

Jeff

[IkarusJohn]

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Unless I really don’t like a camera for some reason, I tend to use them until they’re broken.  I follow the new releases with interest, but not from the perspective of upgrading.  I can think of no release which has stopped my existing cameras from working ...

[Jeff S]

Not sure to whom that’s directed or how it relates to the discussion??  

Jeff

 

[IkarusJohn]

Ah, that’s the great thing about conversations, they wander all over the place.

As you seem to be struggling to understand my point, the comparison is the X1D II, which has been released and is mostly in users’ hands, and the SL2, which hasn’t been released.  As someone who espouses testing cameras yourself, in your hands, I thought you would understand the point that an unverified and speculative spec sheet is somewhat less than ideal for comparison purposes.  But then, my post wasn’t about you.

I use the SL, and have no interest in changing.  I can compare the two cameras and lenses Ardbeg was asking about, save that I don’t have the SL2.  My point, obliquely made, was that if Ardbeg wants the latest and greatest, most MP and the newest (like the hamburger - I want it hot and I want it now), then the SL2 will be just the thing, and my comments will be irrelevant.

But then, I’m just a user ...

Whereas you seem to be looking for an ideal.  You’ve been tossing up the SL since its release and you’ve been tempted by the X1D for some time.  The proof of this pudding, for you, seems to be a combination of EVF quality, usability and print quality - how’s that going?  What will make you jump (as you seem to want to jump - the M10 & Monochrom aren’t enough?).  Will you still be renting and weighing up pros & cons what the X1D III is around the corner and the SL3 the subject of another exhausting 70 pages of wishful thinking?

[Jeff S]

Huh?  I posted about the SL2 expected interface, quoting you, and your next post was about your buying habits. I didn’t think we were on that topic, so I asked about the post.  It wasn’t a commentary on you. 

Whatever works for you is fine by me... your business. Why would you judge my choices or how I entertain myself with gear?  I post here about gear only as it relates to current options that readers seem to care about, and then provide input based on my own experience and thought process to give context and my frame of reference (so to speak).

This is all just entertaining forum chatter.  My real photography takes place off the forum with my grand total of 2 cameras and 3 lenses at the moment.  So what?  I’ve been involved with photography since the early 70’s and have shot with everything from 35mm to MF to 8x10, using 11 brands and dozens of cameras.  So what? Been there, done that. I’ve always done my own processing and printing as well as matting and framing. It continues to go well, thanks. I have additionally helped many on the forum do the same, often interacting through private conversations and receiving frequent thanks.  I’ve also collected vintage prints and photo books since the early 80’s, interacting with many in the visual arts, so whether I’m actively printing and shooting or not, I’m always immersed in the field.  Not that you should care about any of this... but clearly you haven’t a clue about me or my life.

I couldn’t care less if I end up buying one, many or no systems in the future (all are possible). Why should you?   My work and fun will continue without your silly judgment.  

Jeff

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Jeff S

[tom0511]

you want to add a system to the M.

What is your goal/motivation?

Do you want something faster, with AF, something more flexible with zooms, option to use longer tele lenses? -> SL system

Do you search something which offers even better IQ than the M, has AF but is not really faster to use (I would say the x1d(ii) is slower, then x1d.

One big advantage of SL would be to be able to also use your M lenses, and to have similar menue system/ UI logic.

 

[ardbeg]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I’m not sure what “usability friction” means as a selection criteria - is it haptics? Or do you mean reluctance to use?

Yes, I mean by usability friction the extent to which the camera system UI and ergonomics gets out of the way and provides ease of access to key settings — shutter, aperture, ISO, and (in the case of AF systems) manual focus override / focus peaking.

[Jk1002]

I am in the same boat. Ease of use is important. What worries me with the Hasselblad is that it is geared towards few specific situations versus the SL2 I expect to be more of a generalist. Access to the M glas is another consideration even though I mostly use 50mm.

Thinking SL2 with Summicron L 50 when time comes ...

There is a Hasselblad store somewhere in NYC on Broadway and B&H I would think also has a demo. Am curious to try one out next time I am there

[IkarusJohn]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Huh?  I posted about the SL2 expected interface, quoting you, and your next post was about your buying habits. I didn’t think we were on that topic, so I asked about the post.  It wasn’t a commentary on you. 

Whatever works for you is fine by me... your business. Why would you judge my choices or how I entertain myself with gear?  I post here about gear only as it relates to current options that readers seem to care about, and then provide input based on my own experience and thought process to give context and my frame of reference (so to speak).

This is all just entertaining forum chatter.  My real photography takes place off the forum with my grand total of 2 cameras and 3 lenses at the moment.  So what?  I’ve been involved with photography since the early 70’s and have shot with everything from 35mm to MF to 8x10, using 11 brands and dozens of cameras.  So what? Been there, done that. I’ve always done my own processing and printing as well as matting and framing. It continues to go well, thanks. I have additionally helped many on the forum do the same, often interacting through private conversations and receiving frequent thanks.  I’ve also collected vintage prints and photo books since the early 80’s, interacting with many in the visual arts, so whether I’m actively printing and shooting or not, I’m always immersed in the field.  Not that you should care about any of this... but clearly you haven’t a clue about me or my life.

I couldn’t care less if I end up buying one, many or no systems in the future (all are possible). Why should you?   My work and fun will continue without your silly judgment.  

Jeff

 

No judgment on my part, Jeff.  If you got that idea, I clearly expressed myself badly.  You’re quite right, I don’t care about any of what you’ve posted.  I was just answering your question.

Please excuse my responding to you - it was obviously a mistake.

[IkarusJohn]

36 minutes ago, ardbeg said:

Yes, I mean by usability friction the extent to which the camera system UI and ergonomics gets out of the way and provides ease of access to key settings — shutter, aperture, ISO, and (in the case of AF systems) manual focus override / focus peaking.

Each has its own strengths, but like most cameras you just have to get used to the user interface - I know that’s a statement of the bleeding obvious, but where some cameras are far from intuitive (in my experience, A7r and D800e), both cameras provide easy and intuitive access to those core functions.  Front wheel & rear wheel (aperture & shutter speed), ISO & EC via the screen, MF/AF button on the top deck (SL has the joystick, whereas the X1D II you use the screen).  Focus peaking you can set in MF, but I find it less than accurate with fast lenses wide open.

9 minutes ago, Jk1002 said:

I am in the same boat. Ease of use is important. What worries me with the Hasselblad is that it is geared towards few specific situations versus the SL2 I expect to be more of a generalist. Access to the M glas is another consideration even though I mostly use 50mm.

Thinking SL2 with Summicron L 50 when time comes ...

There is a Hasselblad store somewhere in NYC on Broadway and B&H I would think also has a demo. Am curious to try one out next time I am there

That is probably true, but you do get used to each system.  IF you use M lenses, then the X1D II isn’t really an option.  So far, the only lens that’s really usable (unless you crop to square to cut out the vignetting) is the 50 Summilux-M ASPH.  I have a Novoflex HAX-LEM adapter on order and will test the other lenses I have (we know the Noct is hopeless), but I don’t really hold out any hope on the others.

The SL with the 75 Summicron-SL is fantastic.

Be careful trying the Hasselblad - it’s lovely in the hand ...

[Mr.Q]

4 hours ago, verwackelt said:

The downsides of the Hasselblad is the lack of a shutter in Body. You need native lenses with build in shutter or have to use the electronic shutter which has other downsides.
I would go for the L-Mount if you want to have more versatility in lens choices…
And the Hasselblad RAW developer Phocus is not everybody's darling…
I like C1 or LR much more…

 

The leaf shutter is awesome with strobes. (which is actually a donwside of Leica, together with LENR)

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, verwackelt said:

And the Hasselblad RAW developer Phocus is not everybody's darling…
I like C1 or LR much more…

 

I had no problems processing X1D files in LR, albeit on a limited trial basis.  They seem to play well together, especially in conjunction with ImagePrint software.

Jeff

[Jk1002]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

That is probably true, but you do get used to each system

That is where I disagree. For me a 10000$ camera lens combination is probably something I expect to use 5 years or so. I am still exploring a lot hopping one year from Meyerowitz style street photography to taking Daido Moriyama Tokyo Boogie Woogie style snaps with my iPhone to looking at Alec Soth storytelling with his 8 by 5 (His magnum course is epic and I recommend it to everyone looking for inspiration)

I would think if you are exploring photography you have a similar pattern. So what I am trying to say is Hasselblad locks you in at a fairly painful cost. Landscape, Portrait, Still Life. If you're still exploring you should for sure go for the generalist model or have the funds to buy alternate equipment.

I have Leica Q and 262 which I love both, a Polaroid which I love in Summer but not in Winter, a Rolleiflex 2.8 which I am unsure how to use it best and a Sony Rx100 which I am sort of regretting but recently after learning more about the millions of options I tend to appreciate slightly more.

I am keen on Leica Instax, curious about new model that has been rumored. Hoping for something with a glasswork lens and square format. 

My goto is the 262 but that fails me at low light over focussing and the Q which I love but has the 28 limit which is not my favorite lens. 

The Hasselblad though, is for sure a temptation. 

[IkarusJohn]

I don’t think there’s one camera to suit all; at least, not at this price point.

I could just use a TL2, with 11-23 zoom and 35 Summilux-TL, but it isn’t weather proof, it’s APS-C (this is probably just between my ears) and it just doesn’t quite give me the feel I get from the M cameras.  It’s great stuffed in the back of my cycling jersey or a pocket somewhere.  The M cameras are great, but I only use them 28-75.  The SL has wider range, is weather sealed and really is a universal platform.

But then, I loved the 500cx I had, and have always had a soft spot for Hasselblad.  I’d like it a lot more if it was 6x6, but that seems to be beyond the reach of anyone at the moment - I can always crop to square, but somehow that doesn’t seem the same.

This is quite illogical.  My point is, each system has its appeal.  Your M262 does most things in the most used focal lengths.  Adding either an SL2 (an unknown option, at this stage) or an X1D II just gives you another choice.  None of your cameras nor mine are truly generalist in that sense.

Edited November 3, 2019 by IkarusJohn

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Mr.Q]

Yeah there's no perfect camera.

The best performing camera I have is by far the Sony A9. It can capture any moment whether the subject is static or active, whether the condition is bright or dark. The AF hit rate makes photography almost too easy. Video performance is excellent as well. The only caveat is that I don't enjoy using it as much as my Leica's or Hassy's, mostly due to the complicated menu and UI.

In contrast to the Sony, the X1D II is a limiting in terms of features but the most satisfying to use. Ergonomics, especially the grip, is the best I've ever come across. Operation is slow and the process needs to deliberate. The resulting images though, are the most rewarding. The bokeh and OOF fall-off of the 80/1.9 are to die for, and the medium format sensor adds tonality and color depth to the images that you can't achieve with FF.  I'm totally hooked to this epic combo.