What is the point of the Customer Forum?

[elansprint72]

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OK, on the "old forum", which was run by the manufacturer, it was a way of getting Leica to (hopefully) listen to comments from customers. There never, imho, was any evidence that they even read the comments, let alone acted upon them. Looking at the topics currently on here it seems to me that all of them could have been better placed in another of the forums available; therefore is the Customer Forum now redundant?.

 

What I really don't think this site provides is a place to post any subject/type of shot and get advice on composition, or cropping of the full image. I've always said that within a half-decent shot you can find ten photos and maybe it would be nice to have this facility outside the seven photo forum categories, can I seek opinions on whether there would be any support for binning the Customer Forum in favour of a "composition workshop"?

 

To illustrate the type of shot I'm talking about, here is a shot which clearly has too much included, but which could be sliced several ways and still work.

 

What do you think folks? I'd be interested to receive your opinions both about my suggestion and about this particular image.

 

I think that Andreas has done a superb job since the "new forum" was launched and in no way intend this post to be a criticism of his hard work.

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[stuny]

Pete -

 

I like your idea of a composition forum, but I think your idea needs tempering. I get a great deal of help and enjoyment from the current Forum, learning a great deal by example (posted photos, many of which I save to show to Barbara), and through comments. IMHO I think the better solution is adding a composition help section to this Forum.

[mgcd]

Pete -

 

I like your idea of a composition forum, but I think your idea needs tempering. I get a great deal of help and enjoyment from the current Forum, learning a great deal by example (posted photos, many of which I save to show to Barbara), and through comments. IMHO I think the better solution is adding a composition help section to this Forum.

 

I second that.

 

Cheers,

[andybarton]

Interesting idea Pete.

 

Are you looking for a "This shot is awful because...", "You should have stood 3 feet to the left", "I would have used this or that..." type section, or somewhere where people are encouraged to take a shot and re-present it in a different format or composition?

 

Or maybe both?

 

Either way, anyone who posted in such a place needs to be prepared for some shocks.

 

If you post this image at the max size, then people can have a decent chance of playing with it and reposting at a decent size too. (Too much foreground? )

[elansprint72]

Thanks for responding guys. My reason for bringing this up is that I know there has been a debate on and off over the past couple of years around criticism (constructive or otherwise) of shots posted in the photo forums. I certainly feel reticent about telling someone that I think their shot is "total rubbish, could be improved a lot, or may just be enhanced by...." etc.

If there were a place to post shots where criticism/advice was positively invited, I think that I would take advantage of it with some of my own stuff and also feel less reticent about pitching in with comments on anything else posted there. This would also be a good place for photo-newbies to post their output, in the knowledge that they would get some feedback of a (hopefully) helpful nature.

[andybarton]

Pete -

 

I like your idea of a composition forum, but I think your idea needs tempering. I get a great deal of help and enjoyment from the current Forum, learning a great deal by example (posted photos, many of which I save to show to Barbara), and through comments. IMHO I think the better solution is adding a composition help section to this Forum.

 

If it's just composition help that one needs, a good trawl through the photo sections will demonstrate both good and poor composition - usually it's obvious.

 

While there are some who advocate breaking the "rules", there are reasons why these "rules" became accepted in the first place. They go right back to fine art from the renaissance and beyond, nothing to do with photography per-se.

 

What I do think would be a good idea, is a proper FAQ section, along with hints and tips.

[TimF]

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While there are some who advocate breaking the "rules", there are reasons why these "rules" became accepted in the first place. They go right back to fine art from the renaissance and beyond, nothing to do with photography per-se.

True, but if everybody adhered rigidly to rules laid down at some point in the distant (or not so distant) past there'd be no progress. It's rule-breakers who create such opportunities.

 

That said, you need to understand the rules to enable you to break them in a manner which works.

[stunsworth]

I'm with Tim on the rules thing. If no one had broken the rules we'd be sat in the rain banging two rocks together wondering why on earth anyone would want to live in a cave.

 

Experimentation, with success and failure, is what moves things on.

[andybarton]

That said, you need to understand the rules to enable you to break them in a manner which works.

 

Never a truer word spoken here.

[Guest stnami]

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[andybarton]

I'd say that was a demolition job, not a composition job

 

 

That happy face in the sky is, of course, an unknown element in any British composition this year. But, maybe you do need to add something?

 

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[Guest Motivfindender]

Thanks for responding guys. My reason for bringing this up is that I know there has been a debate on and off over the past couple of years around criticism (constructive or otherwise) of shots posted in the photo forums. I certainly feel reticent about telling someone that I think their shot is "total rubbish, could be improved a lot, or may just be enhanced by...." etc.

If there were a place to post shots where criticism/advice was positively invited, I think that I would take advantage of it with some of my own stuff and also feel less reticent about pitching in with comments on anything else posted there. This would also be a good place for photo-newbies to post their output, in the knowledge that they would get some feedback of a (hopefully) helpful nature.

 

 

Pete,

 

this is an excellent proposition.

 

In the gernan Photo-Forum, many people do just this:

criticism in a constructive way. The comments there are sometimes very direct, without any charme, but many Users learn a lot:

1) The author of the picture,

2) the critics (you have to present Arguments why this is good or bad or how one could improve.. another way to learn better REGARDING photos )

3) The people who just look at the photo, read the critics and think about it.

 

This provoces from time to time some conflicts, but it is a way to improve one´s approach to photogarphy the best way possible.

 

In the german Forum, many people ask (!) for constructive criticism, maybe a further difference between the two Forums. And a lot of people of the German Forum do not post here because they find the comments very superficial and WANT to be criticised instead of claps on their shoulders, the which seems a bit ridiculous if the photo is NOT that good.. Perhaps a sort of culture problem.

 

The Ones who can´t stand critics prefer to post ONLY in the international forum, because here you are safe - even the biggest Bu.....t will even get positive comments like "wonderful colours, nice lala and beautiful tralala" . I did already say, that the comments here are sometimes somewhat like straight out of a random generator with nothing than positive text modules..

 

But it is hard to improve that way.

 

Anyway- One way is to accept "negative" criticism as long as it is done in a constructive way.

For that, one needs not a new platform.

 

The other way is not to harm the narcist type of poster in this forum and generate a kind of sub-platform like that you did propose.

The advantage of your idea is:

The way to improve could be more systematical ans with a better structure.

 

So -my 2 cents:

Try to accept more "negative" critics AND start with your well-thought project.

I for my part will participate because I have still much to learn (as you specifically know )

 

Dirk

[andybarton]

I think that a lot of "International" posters are afraid of offending someone with a criticism, and, in turn, afraid of being offended.

 

The advantage of the German side is that the vast majority of posters there are from the same culture. On the International side, we have to cater for everyone else!

 

There are lots of banal comments on shots on this side (I can't tell on the German side as I don't read German), and I am guilty of making some of them, I will admit. However, what a lot of people want over here, is encouragement, rather than outright criticism. Some people will only accept positive comments and critiques and get upset should anyone say anything negative about a shot.

 

In any case, who's to say what is badly composed, or over-exposed, or has camera shake, or poor focusing. Maybe this is what the poster wanted to do? Who else is to say that this is "wrong"? There is no "wrong" or "right" - there are only good photographs, and poor photographs, in the eye of the beholder.

 

I personally think that Cartier-Bresson took some shockers, and worse still, let them out of the house. But, that's just my opinion - I am sure he would think all my stuff is derivative and dull. I don't care. I do enjoy constructive comments and responses to the stuff I show here - who wouldn't - but I don't lose any sleep over stuff that gets little or no response.

 

Pete hasn't explained exactly what he would like to see in this revised/revitalised "Customer" section yet.

[elansprint72]

Thanks again. Dirk makes good points and goes some way to explain why some "forthright opinions" sometimes cross over from the German side of the house.

 

Thanks to Imants and Andy, those helpful suggestions made me smile.

 

As for what I want from a revised customer forum, nothing... I no longer see the point of keeping such a title, all the recent topics could have been posted elsewhere, the manufacturer probably never looks in here and as far as I'm aware never responded to anything even when all that M8 crap was flying about (for all I know it is still flying about, thank heavens for the M8 sub-forum) I was suggesting that, rather than adding yet another forum, perhaps we could dump the customer forum and replace it with a venue for critique. If this idea is not favourable, maybe "constructive criticism welcomed" tagged on to a post would do the job? It just seemed to me that putting all the shots where the author was actively seeking advice into one place might be a good idea.

[frc]

Cutting edge performance in the new forum.

Andreas shows how to slice your picture.

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[elansprint72]

Cutting edge performance in the new forum.

Andreas shows how to slice your picture.

 

They are out there.......

[jacksparrow]

are you suggesting a "mean" section where people posting would be subject to public merciless criticism and humiliation by the crowd? hummm

[Guest Motivfindender]

are you suggesting a "mean" section where people posting would be subject to public merciless criticism and humiliation by the crowd? hummm

 

No, not at all...

 

but perhaps a little bit less pleasant an much more honest.... and shurely mor constructive and helpful.

 

Dirk

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Hallo,

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