*4* New Summarits

[carstenw]

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That doesn't work any more, as Sony and other companies (Minolta?) also have white lenses. The thermal expansion is Canon's story, but Nikon lenses are at least as good, so I think it more likely that it was a marketing ploy, to get Canons noticed.

[wlaidlaw]

Nikon still relies on sensors from Sony, AFAIK. It is not clear that Canon's FF business is actually helping them. Their most popular pro camera is the 1DII/1DIIN/1DIII line, I believe, which is 1.3x anyway. Nikon has a lot of good FF lenses, and I presume that they will add a FF camera to their lineup when they think it is hurting their business. The D2Xs was a bit of a sleeper, and crept to the top of several pro camera ratings charts, displacing the 1Ds2 without anyone noticing. The 1D3 is now there, not fully deserved yet.

 

As someone else has posted, Nikon's sales topped Canon's in Japan this last year, so if anything, I would say that Nikon is getting it right and Canon should pay more attention. The D40/D40x/D80/D200 strategy seems to be beating Canon's 400D/30D/5D strategy. The 5D is too expensive to outcompete the D200, and the 30D is too old at this point. Canon is also missing a really cheap camera like the D40. A friend of mine just bought a D40 on my recommendation and is super-happy with it, spending lots of time learning photography and getting very serious about it.

 

Another point is that at high ISO, apparently the D40/D40x are at least the equals of the 400D, and the D2Xs is at least as good as the 1Ds2. The 5D is still without peer, but the D200 is not that far behind, and is a lot cheaper, so I would not be surprised if Nikon's strategy is winning financially in this area.

 

If I buy a non-Leica again at some point in the future, I find the Nikons a lot more attractive, especially with their superior ergonomics.

 

Carsten,

 

I suspect the relative Nikon/Canon sales figures have much to do with the fact that Canon's mid range DSLR's, the 30D and 5D are in digital terms, getting long in the tooth. I believe both are being replaced as part of Canon's 75th anniversary this year. Nikon has produced a deluge of DSLR's which has kept their range very fresh looking and I agree that they are good. I like and have used the D200 and D40 quite a bit. Apart from the wrong way round lenses, their ergonomics suit me better than Canon. Nevertheless, there must be a considerable body of high end amateurs and professionals, for whom a full frame is important and at the moment, they can only choose Canon, if they cannot afford or carry mid size format. Perhaps there is just enough business for two producers. We shall see if ever an R10 comes out FF.

 

Wilson

[stunsworth]

That doesn't work any more, as Sony and other companies (Minolta?) also have white lenses

 

But to be blunt, how many pros use Sony (or Pentax, or errr...). In fact to be even blunter, how many _people_ use anything other than Nikon or Canon DSLRs? <grin>

[petermcwerner]

Isn't the white finish on the big teles and zooms to do with thermal expansion with black bodies?

I agree they look stupid, but on the other hand they get Canon noticed on TV at sporting events, and as with all photographers in the NFL being required to wear Canon vests, it publicity like that that matters.

May I remind that white teles are not that new, Astro Berlin offered white teles many years ago

 

 

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Astro Berlin Telastan 300 f/3.5

[stunsworth]

May I remind that white teles are not that new, Astro Berlin offered white teles many years ago

Well that's errr... different <grin>

[carstenw]

But to be blunt, how many pros use Sony (or Pentax, or errr...). In fact to be even blunter, how many _people_ use anything other than Nikon or Canon DSLRs? <grin>

A valid point, but with Sony's push at the moment, I don't think that things will stay this way. Sony is large and some people will switch.

[stunsworth]

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A valid point, but with Sony's push at the moment, I don't think that things will stay this way. Sony is large and some people will switch.

 

Maybe, but Sony seems to be on a fairly long term decline IMHO. Certainly speaking to people I know their perception of 'the brand' has changed over the last few years, and the relative flop of the PS3 hasn't helped the company.

[carstenw]

I agree about Sony's general decline, but I think the PS3 is not a good example. A friend of mine is a true hard-core gamer, owns every modern platform, subscribes to the online services, and even used to program for a games company (Crytek), and his opinion carries some weight in my company. He bought the XBox 360 when it came out, and had more or less decided not to get the PS3, because at the time it was really not looking good. Microsoft's package and online service were all-round much better thought out, but then something strange happened. Sony changed, Microsoft didn't, and things are swinging the other way. Sony's game department knows that the most money is made at the end of the 8-10-year lifecycle, when the machine can be made for nothing and the games all have licensing fees, and that the start is relatively unimportant. They are wooing developers with better deals, and the hardware is clearly more capable. Even their online service is looking up, with many aspects being much better designed, even though not everything is looking good yet. Meanwhile Microsoft have fired their boss, and are running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Sony is biding its time, and is getting more important exclusives, so it is virtually guaranteed that every serious gamer will end up with a PS3 at some point. Heck, even I will probably buy one, although I already own an XBox 360 Microsoft kinda cut their own strategy in half when they replaced the still-relatively-new XBox with the XBox 360, although they did have a lot of third-party parts in the XBox, making it hard for them to get to the point where the hardware was profitable, or even just neutral. Sony made a killing in the last few years of PS2 sales, doing essentially nothing and earning lots of money, but it took years to get to that point.

 

It is interesting to watch it unfold, and in some sense, Nikon's actions parallels Sony's, with them having waited, watched and then presented a broadside at the right time, just when the opposition was weak.

 

Canon's problem is in some sense that no matter which camera they update, they end up replacing one, but making competition on another. The old 30D vs. 5D problem is alive and well, and the 1D3 must be putting the squeeze on the 1Ds2 sales. Nikon seems to have done a better job differentiating their models, even though they have more. I think part of the problem is that the gaps in the prices in the Canon lineup are too large, and so if you are considering two models, you will tend to go for the cheaper one. In the Nikon lineup the prices are closer between models, except the D2Xs which is way up there, clearly for pros only. As such, potential Nikon customers may tend to buy the more expensive model of the two they are looking at. The capability scale is also more logical from D40 to D2Xs. In the Canon lineup there is always this "yes but" feeling when looking at the more expensive model, and the 400D/30D gap may be the cause of a significant weakness in Canon's lineup, since the 400D has more resolution, the primary marketing factor. However, if Canon makes the 30D replacement too good, they cannibalise the sales of the 5D. Catch-22.

 

With respect to Leica, they never really had this problem since the sister-models were always more or less identical in price and capabilities, and tended to be differentiated by other factors, like manual vs. automatic, and 0.85x vs. 0.72x vs. 0.58x, and black versus chrome.

 

It would be interesting to see a two-model M lineup, with the lower-end model perhaps having 6-7MP and a body designed to be much cheaper to produce, ie. more stamped versus milles parts and so on, but I am not sure that Leica tends to think in this way. It would sure fit with the Summarits.

 

I haven't thought of this before, but the M8 October price-hike would take on a whole different meaning if the purpose of it was actually to make room for a cheaper model.

[stunsworth]

I'm not sure how well a 6-7 mpixel model would sell given that in digital terms such a pixel count is ancient history - and is anyone even making suitable sensors these days?

 

I think the lens issue is very interesting. It seems to me that Leica want some of the action that the Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses are having, in particular the Zeiss ones - though they may also be thinking that purchasers of the fast, and more expensive, Voigtlander lenses will pay a premium for the Leica name. Not to mention the fact that while Voigtlander seem to be moving to M bayonet fittings which can't support the 6 bit codings in an elegant fashion, the new lenses will.

[carstenw]

I'm not sure how well a 6-7 mpixel model would sell given that in digital terms such a pixel count is ancient history - and is anyone even making suitable sensors these days?

 

I think the lens issue is very interesting. It seems to me that Leica want some of the action that the Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses are having, in particular the Zeiss ones - though they may also be thinking that purchasers of the fast, and more expensive, Voigtlander lenses will pay a premium for the Leica name. Not to mention the fact that while Voigtlander seem to be moving to M bayonet fittings which can't support the 6 bit codings in an elegant fashion, the new lenses will.

I think that many potential M customers are wily enough to realise that resolution is strictly a question of what you need it for. If you are making press photos or webpages, or just using it for normal personal use, 6MP is plenty. It is only for art, advertising and so on where you really need 10MP or more. Newcomers to photography don't tend to buy Leica, especially the M range.

 

The recent M-mount strategy of Voigtländer looks like it is back-firing, doesn't it. With John Milich offering adapters which can be coded, suddenly the screw-mount is looking more attractive, a real change of fortunes. I am still considering getting a CV21/4 and I am not sure which mount I would want. I would tend to want the M, but then I would have to unscrew it to send it off for coding. Hmm.

[Joop van Heijgen]

Joop, I have seldom read such tosh. You seem to delight in sweeping generalisations, opinions presented as facts, and downright rubbish.

 

Back up your accusations or shut up.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

"Back up your accusations or shut up."

 

Leica 'fundamentalists' are often to find on this forum!

 

Members of the unknown 'Leica church'!

[Joop van Heijgen]

1) where do you get this nonsense from?

2) assuming you don't have any facts and this is entirely your own imagination, why present it as fact?

3) you clearly aren't interested in these lenses so why bother posting anything at all?

 

 

"where do you get this nonsense from?"

 

- Erwin Puts article confirms the 75 and 90s have rubber finger grips, a new direction for M lenses.

- Interesting that the special price for the 90/2.8 (€1299, down from €1700) is still more than the price for the Summarit-M 90/2.5

[hankg]

Well if Erwin is right and Lieca is innovating in its manufacturing methods that would be great. Zeiss has already proven you don't need super expensive exotic glass, aspherics and expensive and difficult to QC hand assembly methods to make great lenses. Lens design is getting the right balance of compromises and applying cost and innovation where it will return the greatest benefit.

 

Any lensmaker can make spectacular lenses if money and size is n o object. A $3,000. 50mm prime would be spectaculer from Canon, Pentax, Nikon or Sigma. It's much more impressive to produce great optics in a compact size for a resonable price relative to the rest of the market.

 

All the comments about the Summarits are pure speculation at this point but it may be the start of something very positive for Leica. BMW has proven with innovation you can keep productivity high and remain competitive with low wage manufacturing centers and continue to build a high end world class product.

[wlaidlaw]

I think that many potential M customers are wily enough to realise that resolution is strictly a question of what you need it for. If you are making press photos or webpages, or just using it for normal personal use, 6MP is plenty. It is only for art, advertising and so on where you really need 10MP or more. Newcomers to photography don't tend to buy Leica, especially the M range.

 

The recent M-mount strategy of Voigtländer looks like it is back-firing, doesn't it. With John Milich offering adapters which can be coded, suddenly the screw-mount is looking more attractive, a real change of fortunes. I am still considering getting a CV21/4 and I am not sure which mount I would want. I would tend to want the M, but then I would have to unscrew it to send it off for coding. Hmm.

 

Having just collected my 60cm x 90 cm print (upscaled with Epson Rip software) and been blown away by the detail from "just" 10.1 Mp, I think 8Mp would be fine for a lower end/second body M line camera. Sharpie coding is working just fine for me but that is on lenses that just require one narrow or wide blob. Where you had to put in differently spaced narrow blobs, I am guessing I would have much more trouble.

 

Wilson

[earleygallery]

"where do you get this nonsense from?"

 

- Erwin Puts article confirms the 75 and 90s have rubber finger grips, a new direction for M lenses.

- Interesting that the special price for the 90/2.8 (€1299, down from €1700) is still more than the price for the Summarit-M 90/2.5

 

Joop - I was referring to the following from your earlier post;

 

These new lenses are 'cost cutting' lenses!

 

Mechanical they will probably not have the qualitiy of the 'older' types!

 

You cannot make a lens like the Summarit-M 90/2,5 for the lower price of a Elmarit 90/2,8 M with the same optical and mechanical quality!

 

'Well kept secret" They are made in China and they put it in a box in Germany!

 

On the box: 'Made in Germany"

 

So, you have seen and used these lenses? You have visited the secret Chinese factory?

 

Please go and waste your time elsewhere if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

[stunsworth]

Erwin's review does seem to have been written without having used, or maybe even seen, the lenses. At least that was my interpretation of his 'review'. Lots of assumptions, and written in an ambiguous way to perhaps make the reader think he had handled the lenses when he hadn't actually seen them.

[guywalder]

I'm not sure how well a 6-7 mpixel model would sell given that in digital terms such a pixel count is ancient history - and is anyone even making suitable sensors these days?

 

I think the lens issue is very interesting. It seems to me that Leica want some of the action that the Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses are having, in particular the Zeiss ones - though they may also be thinking that purchasers of the fast, and more expensive, Voigtlander lenses will pay a premium for the Leica name. Not to mention the fact that while Voigtlander seem to be moving to M bayonet fittings which can't support the 6 bit codings in an elegant fashion, the new lenses will.

 

err yes! Nikon are still selling the D2Hs (using their own sensor, as origonally developed for the D2H). If you look you will also find some people heaping praise on it, all depends on your requirements. If you are shooting for newsprint, and file your work while squatting under an umbrella in some god forsaken carpark, then a small file size is a big benefit! The D2Hs has, of course, a grand total of 4.1Mp

[sdai]

Depends on how you read it ... Erwin's article is by no means a "review" IMHO.

 

Although it's exciting to see the changes the new Leica management is bringing into the company, I highly doubt there'll be a trimmed down version of the M8 ... what could you take away to justify the lowered sticker price? 1.5x sensor with 6-8MP, 4 bit DNG?

[thrid]

Joop -

You cannot make a lens like the Summarit-M 90/2,5 for the lower price of a Elmarit 90/2,8 M with the same optical and mechanical quality!

 

Actually you can, if you are smart about it and it appears that finally a lightbulb went on somewhere in Solms.

 

Erwin points out that all four lenses share the same mount and other components. That really is the big news. Now you have the economics of scale on your side and many other advantages. Previously every Leica lens was a 'one off'. They designed each one from scratch and it appears that they shared few if any components.

 

If Leica can apply these modern production methods to their entire pipline (something Zeiss has been doing), they will be able to produce high quality products that can be sold at more competitive prices.

 

 

PS: Somehow the new Summarits remind me of the Hasselblad/Fuji lenses for the Xpan.

I have the 4/45 and the build quality is exceptional.

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[leicapfile]

Fellows,

 

Lets not be too hard on Joop. At least he doesn't start any threads (in English at least), nor does he post a photo of himself.

 

Moving on to the thread subject, I think Leica is producing these lenses because they think that they can sell them, and I'll bet they are right. thrid is on the right track regarding the design/manufacturing efficiences they appear to employ.

 

And while I don't have the Southwest USA/Solms hotline that Guy does, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new film M body at next years Photokina, somewhat along the lines of the old M2, sans MP/MP3 engraving and meter. Black only. Little if any new tooling would be required.

 

With transparency film reaching the end of its economic life (processing), and non-tranparancy film with its greater latitude, a meter isn't that necessary. Now if the new lenses can bend the photons near what the old glass could, Leica will be OK for awhile.

 

Best,

 

Jerry