Firmware 2.7.5.0 out!!

[Matlock]

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47 minutes ago, AndreasG said:

They informed me today that I get a replacement Visoflex.

That is good news but in your last post you stated "My M10-D, combined with a brand new Visoflex from the shelf gave the same result - no GPS functionality". Are they saying that all their Visoflex finders are defective? Seems a little strange. Mine is working perfectly now.

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[scott kirkpatrick]

GPS performance (without help from the mobile phone companies, who know where their towers are located) is highly variable.  Yesterday my Garmin 60CS was seeing 8 satellites and the VF20 got a valid position in less than a minute.  This evening, I went to the same location and the Garmin could only see three satellites strongly, and was trying to nail down weak signals from one or two more.  That's not enough for a 3D fix.  So in addition to vulnerabilities like dirty contacts, the signal we are looking for varies.  It is no wonder that there is no agreement on whether the VF20 GPS is worth the trouble.

But I encourage everyone to install the latest firmware.  No problems have been reported, and if you do find a problem and are not using the latest firmware, Leica can't help.

 

[Matlock]

8 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

GPS performance (without help from the mobile phone companies, who know where their towers are located) is highly variable.  Yesterday my Garmin 60CS was seeing 8 satellites and the VF20 got a valid position in less than a minute.  This evening, I went to the same location and the Garmin could only see three satellites strongly, and was trying to nail down weak signals from one or two more.  That's not enough for a 3D fix.  So in addition to vulnerabilities like dirty contacts, the signal we are looking for varies.  It is no wonder that there is no agreement on whether the VF20 GPS is worth the trouble.

But I encourage everyone to install the latest firmware.  No problems have been reported, and if you do find a problem and are not using the latest firmware, Leica can't help.

 

I agree with you Scott and I find it rather sad that some have tried to turn this post into a way of criticising Leica, but that is rather common in forums in general.

[Gobert]

45 minutes ago, Matlock said:

I agree with you Scott and I find it rather sad that some have tried to turn this post into a way of criticising Leica, but that is rather common in forums in general.

I agree as well. There is a lot of negativsm towards our brand in this forum. I have never understood why those  negative loaded people don’t buy a proper yapanese brand and show their negativsm on that brand forum?

Edited September 6, 2019 by Gobert

[Matlock]

20 minutes ago, Gobert said:

I agree as well. There is a lot of negativsm towards our brand in this forum. I have never understood why those  negative loaded people don’t buy a proper yapanese brand and show their negativsm on that brand forum?

It is a very common problem on forums in general. I belong to one (nothing to do with photography) in which a new limited edition got rave reviews. Then someone posted a negative comment, this started a wave of  criticism until it was pointed out that the number of those comments referred to twice the number of items that had been produced. Some people just post to see their name on the site it would seem.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Matlock

[AndreasG]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Matlock:

Are they saying that all their Visoflex finders are defective?

They don't say anything, they simply offer to exchange a product that might be defective. Considering that a Visoflex is a low cost item within the Leica product portfolio it is the best and fastest way to keep me as a customer satisfied, for me, it is simply good service by Leica.

[scott kirkpatrick]

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My hope for forums like this is that they will be used to:

  help users who first encounter a new Leica product to figure out how it works

  help users who have some more experience with Leica nail down the differences between models and ways of using them in terms that make sense to them, maybe inspiring others to try some of the new features and capabilities

   provide constructive feedback to Leica when something doesn't work, or works in a way that makes it very hard to use.  

   share neat pictures.

There is nothing negative about any of these.  

Edited September 7, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[Gobert]

@scott kirkpatrick would it be a consideration to add “sharing a passion”

[pajamies]

14 hours ago, Gobert said:

I agree as well. There is a lot of negativsm towards our brand in this forum. I have never understood why those  negative loaded people don’t buy a proper yapanese brand and show their negativsm on that brand forum?

 

14 hours ago, Matlock said:

It is a very common problem on forums in general. I belong to one (nothing to do with photography) in which a new limited edition got rave reviews. Then someone posted a negative comment, this started a wave of  criticism until it was pointed out that the number of those comments referred to twice the number of items that had been produced. Some people just post to see their name on the site it would seem.

Sorry guys, my intention was merely to get help for a problem with the Visoflex 20 GPS function. Not to bash Leica in any way.

And I have received several suggestions already.

I guess you could actually count me as a Leica fan boy:

The Leica M10-D is my 5th Leica M. I have used the Visoflex 20 extensively since I got my first M10 for LEICA TRI-ELMAR-M 1:4/16-18-21 mm ASPH., the LEICA SUMMICRON 1:2/90 mm, the LEICA APO-TELYT-M 1:3,4/135 mm, and recently with the LEICA NOCTILUX-M 1:1,25/75 ASPH., which was preceded by the LEICA NOCTILUX-M 50mm f/0.95 ASPH., also often used with the help the Visoflex. I often use the MACRO-ADAPTER-M, and the Visoflex also comes to use with that.

The lens that I mostly use with my Leica M is the LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-M 50mm f/2 ASPH. I also have the LEICA SUMMILUX-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH., a good travel lens.

My apologies for upsetting you.

I will report eventual progress in my Visoflex GPS matter. 

[Matlock]

9 minutes ago, pajamies said:

 

Sorry guys, my intention was merely to get help for a problem with the Visoflex 20 GPS function. Not to bash Leica in any way.

And I have received several suggestions already.

I guess you could actually count me as a Leica fan boy:

The Leica M10-D is my 5th Leica M. I have used the Visoflex 20 extensively since I got my first M10 for LEICA TRI-ELMAR-M 1:4/16-18-21 mm ASPH., the LEICA SUMMICRON 1:2/90 mm, the LEICA APO-TELYT-M 1:3,4/135 mm, and recently with the LEICA NOCTILUX-M 1:1,25/75 ASPH., which was preceded by the LEICA NOCTILUX-M 50mm f/0.95 ASPH., also often used with the help the Visoflex. I often use the MACRO-ADAPTER-M, and the Visoflex also comes to use with that.

The lens that I mostly use with my Leica M is the LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-M 50mm f/2 ASPH. I also have the LEICA SUMMILUX-M 35mm f/1.4 ASPH., a good travel lens.

My apologies for upsetting you.

I will report eventual progress in my Visoflex GPS matter. 

I don't think either of us were getting at you and you certainly have not upset me. However others have been less than positive and seem to take a delight in "knocking" Leica.

[DickieT]

I will add myself to the apologizing camp as I have no desire to upset anyone. I did express my disappointment with the update. I am an absolute Leica fan but also believe that no brand is perfect. Leica introduced the 10D almost a year ago and have asked users for feedback - it would be nice to see some of that reflected in firmware updates. But then again - I bought the D based on it's merits at that moment and I still think it is the best digital M (for me) out there. I guess a lot can be solved with better communication and expectation management amongst users..

[scott kirkpatrick]

@Gobert: Well, a thread that is all about expressing and sharing passion (between consenting, adult photographers) will invariably attract trolls.  I think it's the pheromones.  But that's life on the internet.

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

on GPS:  I suspect Leica originally thought of GPS as something that they could source outside their company and depend on the source of the chip to make it sensitive and robust.  So they wouldn't have to dedicate an expensive engineer to the task, just buy it from a good company, and maybe learn how to integrate the right sort of antenna into a plastic bump like what you see on top of the SL...  But the notes on the things that this firmware fixes includes stuff about making sure that the camera knows where it is precisely enough that it can turn off the GPS when it crosses the boundaries of countries that don't want it to be using GPS there.  Countries with lots of potential customers.  Like China. 

Every new product that is to be imported into such a country has be be registered and tested by that country's ministry of communications, radio, or whatever.  This takes time so the registration step is a prime source for Leica Rumors to catch news of new products coming to market.  This painful process is a reason why I expect cameras in the future to let our phones handle location and just relay that information to the camera over low power Bluetooth from an app.  Then they just have to have their WiFi and Bluetooth components, which are fairly standard, certified for import.

We can help to determine how accurate the camera's GPS is by extracting the LAT LON coordinates from metadata of pictures taken at a known spot, passing that info to Google Maps, using world view to determine the locations of sidewalks, curbs and buildings, and reporting the results.  Good GPS measurements should be within 20 m horizontal distance from the actual position on the map, assuming lots of clear sky and lots of satellites in that sky.  GPS units sold for hiking or for navigating boats and airplanes (but not cars) usually have a startup page which maps the satellites that  they can receive. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[inglis]

Has anyone noticed how much extra battery power the gps uses in terms of shortening the battery life?

I am trying to figure out whether or not to remain with the previous firmware on an M10 D. 

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49 minutes ago, inglis said:

Has anyone noticed how much extra battery power the gps uses in terms of shortening the battery life?

I am trying to figure out whether or not to remain with the previous firmware on an M10 D. 

During the Beta testing of the new firmware version for the M10's I found that it did not make any difference whether you are on the new/Beta firmware or the previous one in regards to battery consumption on the M10-D. However as the GPS is automatically on whenever the Visoflex 020 is mounted on the M10-D whether you want to use it or not a request to Leica for them to enable on/off switching of the GPS function, like with the M10/M10P, would surely help in that respect...........I did request this during the Beta testing and Leica replied that they thought it was a good idea, but unfortunately that facility didn't turn up when the new firmware became live the other day.

Edited September 7, 2019 by petermullett
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[pedaes]

Uploaded ok, and Firmware line in Menu showing 2.7.5.0 but is 'greyed out'. Is this correct?

[scott kirkpatrick]

41 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Uploaded ok, and Firmware line in Menu showing 2.7.5.0 but is 'greyed out'. Is this correct?

yes.  That's how it looks on my M10.  Since it is the newest, and you don't have another, newer firmware on your SD card, there's nothing more to be done, so it is just greyed out.

[pedaes]

5 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

yes.  That's how it looks on my M10.  Since it is the newest, and you don't have another, newer firmware on your SD card, there's nothing more to be done, so it is just greyed out.

Thanks. That is helpful and reassuring! I didn't make a mental note of how it looked before I started upgrade and couldn't remember.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[low325]

glad this update was for the D also, didn't get the impression that it was included since initial reports only specified 10/P.  Updating now, wooptie!

[IkarusJohn]

Updates are just things that I do automatically - I don’t think about it too much.  I wasn’t expecting any menu changes, autofocus or anything else on my M10-D.  What more is there to have?  But increased stability is always worth it.

Curiously when I inserted the SD card and turned on the camera, I got UP then bc - took me a while to realise I didn’t have enough charge on the battery ... Doh!

I relation to GPS, I’ve been using various GPS units for 30 years or so, primarily for cross-country paragliding.  Back in the day, we used Garmin 12 GPS units, in combination with variometers (registering altitude and height change by pressure and temperature fluctuations).  The curious thing is that physically, you can register change, but not constant lift or sink.  The added complication is that we are restricted by airspace (altitude ceilings which get you disqualified if you break) and horizontal restrictions (for air space as well) and goals (cylinders you must enter around a waypoint to stay on the course).  So, accurate horizontal and vertical location can be critical.

Back in the day, we would know our launch altitudes from maps or site guides (so you’d set your altimeter at launch), we’d fly with a map on our laps with the course marked, and would photograph the turn point with your feet in the image (35mm fixed lens film compacts like the Olympus mu).  When GPS came in, we could record tracks and knew our horizontal position accurately to within 10 feet or so (a PG flies at 10m/s horizontally at trim speed, roughly).  So, the alarm would go off, you’d count to 10 and be confident you’d made the turnpoint.  GPS were hopelessly inaccurate vertically (US Defence Force scrambling the data for security reasons).

At the end of a day’s racing, rather than handing in film for some poor soul to develop and check, we’d just download the track.  Dongles, computers refusing to connect, flat batteries and poor satellite connections were the new hassles.

Now, GPS is built into just about everything, and when you’re 4,000’ above the ground, GPS signals are strong.  On the ground, not so much.  As Scott mentions above, there are varying numbers of GPS satellites in geostationary orbit above you, depending where you are, and what is around you.  Sometimes a bit of patience is required - an open field and a full battery may be what you need, and time.  Generally, most GPS units will remember where you were for your last fix, so once you have a fix, subsequent fixes are reasonably quick.  If you fly to a new country, take the time to get a fix before you need it.

Cellphones cheat, because they triangulate cell towers first - the GPS signal is actually not as good as you might think.  Leica will be using an industry standard GPS chip - no better, no worse than anyone elses.

Edited September 7, 2019 by IkarusJohn