rumors SL2 with 36MP sensor only

[Chaemono]

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

Whichever way you look at this you end up with a cosmetic upgrade with some new useful features and a custom sensor with improved image QUALITY and modest increase in mpx. All the other options just don't sound like 'Leica' to me. Whatever Leica do they always stick to their fundamental philosophy

The L-mount alliance may make them a bit more ambitious otherwise they might have to discontinue the SL. Five mirrorless camera customers are not enough to make it survive. Image processors can be purchased by third parties. So can sensors and PDAF technology.

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[sillbeers15]

8 hours ago, thighslapper said:

Whichever way you look at this you end up with a cosmetic upgrade with some new useful features and a custom sensor with improved image QUALITY and modest increase in mpx. All the other options just don't sound like 'Leica' to me. Whatever Leica do they always stick to their fundamental philosophy ..... which is essentially putting as little interference as possible between the eye and the final image ...... with no compromises on ultimate quality. 

I can agree if this were a ‘fill gap’ model such as the Vlux which Leica does not assign resources to develop it in-house, just a private label.

However SL is too important for Leica to risk producing SL2 as a cosmetic clone of S1R. I actually see it as a cause for Leica not to depend or duplicate the AF capacity and sensor as the S1R now that both share the same mount.

One can clearly see that the S3 is in no technology lead in the Leica product range. It is likely that Leica saw the market and potential to be too small or profitable.

lt is clear that the SL and M are and will still be the critical products to the company for profitability and sustainability.

In the current SL, Leica has proven itself on producing a FF digital camera system with great optical capability and a versatile hardware. I hope the SL2 will be an improvement over SL on it’s weaker AF capacity due to insufficient processing power or/& CDAF with an updated pixel over the current 24MP sensor to produce another robust all rounder FF that it intended to be rather than just another pixel chasing hardware.

Let’s now forget the presence of the S1R that by itself is already a pretty damn good FF offering one of the highest pixel available. I hope not to see an identical spec SL2 over Pana S1R.

[Chaemono]

vor 35 Minuten schrieb sillbeers15:

Let’s now forget the presence of the S1R that by itself is already a pretty damn good FF offering one of the highest pixel available. I hope not to see an identical spec SL2 over Pana S1R.

Priced at $8,500 for the red dot, nice UI, slick body, and M lens compatibility.

[saxo]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Chaemono:

Priced at $8,500 for the red dot, nice UI, slick body, and M lens compatibility.

no way

[colonel]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The L-mount alliance may make them a bit more ambitious otherwise they might have to discontinue the SL. Five mirrorless camera customers are not enough to make it survive. Image processors can be purchased by third parties. So can sensors and PDAF technology.

LOL

The SL is Leica and the concept remains

Whether Leica keeps a range going is up to them, but they will for sure keep a FF Mirrorless professional camera going

The L alliance is a nice to have, not an essential. Leica survives in its own universe ...

Edited September 2, 2019 by colonel

[colonel]

2 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

However SL is too important for Leica to risk producing SL2 as a cosmetic clone of S1R. I actually see it as a cause for Leica not to depend or duplicate the AF capacity and sensor as the S1R now that both share the same mount.

Let’s now forget the presence of the S1R that by itself is already a pretty damn good FF offering one of the highest pixel available. I hope not to see an identical spec SL2 over Pana S1R.

People continue to make the mistake of thinking that Leica is competing at the level of lowest commercial common denominator

It seeks to offer and experience and build that is quite unique. This will be a unique proposition that doesn't appeal to the masses.

At the risk of getting flamed, but I can say this here as its a Leica forum ;), I don't think the S1R is pretty good. Its too heavy and too big (20% heavier then the SL) and the AF is sub-par for the current generation. The SL AF is better, even though its 5 years old. Its sales reflect the mistake Panasonic has made.

If I wanted the best commercial FF HR AF mirrorless, its the A7R iv by far (I'd take one over the X1D anyday). And if I want more DSLR like handling, I'd go for the Z7 for sure.

The SL has superior handling for my taste and l LOVE the menu system, the feel in the hand, the noise of the shutter, the EVF, the grip, the brutalist bauhaus design, etc.

All Leica has to do for the SL2 is to continue to offer a unique and satisfying experience for those that are prepared to pay for it. There will be some innovations, more focus points, better DR, better ISO, more pixels, a few more features, some body tweaks, but essentially it will stay the same concept. A rock solid upmarket professional platform for pros and enthusiasts that are prepared to pay. Its lens line will ensure its longevity (new roadmap to be announced). For sure the Sigma and Panasonic lenses have lowered the point of entry for some, but they remain peripheral to Leica's sales strategy

I do hope Panny gets it right for its second generation of mirrorless. I loved their small high quality 4/3s range, particularly the lenses, and the lead they have take in some aspects of video is well deserved. But they have to make it on their own in the FF mirrorless world. Sigma and Leica will plough their indepedent paths, as usual ....

Edited September 2, 2019 by colonel

[verwackelt]

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

The Monochrom (CCD based, version 1) doesn't have JPGs at all, and the output is "flat", but wonderful with a little bit of post-processing.

That is a near perfect camera for me.  Similarly, the M Edition 60 didn't produce JPGs either.  As others have commented, I really don't understand investing in such an expensive and niche system, then just using JPGs.  Have you tried even simple tone curve adjustments, like Jeff has suggested?  Even minor processing can turn what looks like a dull raw file into something really special.

Raw files out of the Monochrom are incredible - wouldn't know what the JGPs would look like, as the camera doesn't generate any.  Even the histogram is based off the raw file.

I do not have a Leica Monochrome but only had to optimise a bunch of JPGs and RAWs a client send me. May be he converted the JPGs by himself and had problems to get good results. 
So send it to me for rework them.
I know a lot of pros that shoot JPG and RAWs and send the JPGs to the client to do selection. Then later the selected raws are postprocessed. They would hate using an expensive camera where you have to tweek the jpgs for sending to customer just for selections. They expect, that jpgs are in a good basic quality too.

Yes you can make beautiful Pictures of the raws with a bit afford in C1.
Perhaps leica should better cooperate with PhaseOne that C1 has better default profiles for the Leica monochrome.
But unfortunately PhaseOnes monochrome does even not good files oob…

But the others are right, we drifted a bit off topic…

[thighslapper]

32 minutes ago, colonel said:

At the risk of getting flamed, but I can say this here as its a Leica forum ;), I don't think the S1R is pretty good. Its too heavy and too big (20% heavier then the SL) and the AF is sub-par for the current generation. The SL AF is better, even though its 5 years old. Its sales reflect the mistake Panasonic has made.

Wot ???? 

When you factor in the weight of the lenses the weight and size difference of the body is not significant ..... and in fact the body shape makes holding the heavy L mount lenses significantly easier.

As for the SL's AF being superior to the S1/S1R .......  ....... having used the SL for nearly 4 years and the S1R for almost 6 months I personally would consider the latter easily more reliable, accurate and faster. 

As for sales .... who knows ....  the S1/S1R are an entirely new format for Panasonic which will have to steal customers from the competition rather than rely on loyal users upgrading. 

If I had a choice today of an SL or an S1R I would take the S1R as it trumps the SL on resolution, features and ergonomics, even if it lacks the simplicity and styling of the SL. 

If the SL2 gives me some of the S1R's advantages in an updated package I'll be happy to return to the Leica fold, but until then I'm sitting on the fence.  

[LocalHero1953]

A word of caution to those expecting a miraculously stonking new SL2: the TL2 was a fairly simple upgrade to the T/TL. It had very few changes, although those it made were enough to make me (and quite a lot of others) buy it:

- increased resolution: 16>24mp (NB equivalent to 24>36 for the SL).
- removed the built in flash.
- speed improvements all round, esp AF.
- NO change in form factor/design (too iconic to change? Doesn't apply to the SL, so perhaps expect changes here).
- NO major new technology.

And that all, folks!

[Chaemono]

Not quite the same situation, obviously. There were no competitors’ cameras able to take T/TL lenses. Leica could basically come up with a cosmetic upgrade of the T/TL with some new useful features and improved image quality and modest increase in MPx and users would buy it. It ain’t so now. Panasonic has a low light monster with the S1 with the best high ISO noise and color performance of any FF body out there and a high resolution monster with the S1R priced at fraction of the SL. SL users are not as dumb as we look. 

[colonel]

21 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Not quite the same situation, obviously. There were no competitors’ cameras able to take T/TL lenses. Leica could basically come up with a cosmetic upgrade of the T/TL with some new useful features and improved image quality and modest increase in MPx and users would buy it. It ain’t so now. Panasonic has a low light monster with the S1 with the best high ISO noise and color performance of any FF body out there and a high resolution monster with the S1R priced at fraction of the SL. SL users are not as dumb as we look. 

Again. This is just spec talk. Leica doesn’t compete on spec along. Anyone who buys cameras using check lists of spec alone, wouldn’t buy Leica. I mean compare an M9 to an A7 ....

Of course there may be things you need which the Leica hasn’t, but the SL is a very comprehensively specced model.

For those wanting innovation Leica doesnt' disappoint, for example, the first APS-C compact, the first professional mirrorless,  etc.

The raison d'etre though is not competing soley on a checklist basis, going for simplicity, workflow, build, etc.

The S1 is a completely different fiddly arrangement then the SL. As well as not being as handsome

If you want to talk spec, then the A7Riv wipes it’s nose with the S1R and IMHO far better handling for what it is ....

Edited September 2, 2019 by colonel

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, verwackelt said:

I do not have a Leica Monochrome but only had to optimise a bunch of JPGs and RAWs a client send me.

We are much more tolerant of vast changes in contrast and tonal properties in B&W than we are in colour. It seems that Leica went for a flat default profile on the MM, which is what one would traditionally use for proof prints. The idea with those is to see how much tonal range is available to you, so that you can select the images that deserve further processing.

Maybe Leica should offer JPEG presets (aka "scene modes") that are named after famous Leica photographers? Set it to "Ralf Gibson" if you want that Brovira punch! "HCB" will make all of your pictures slightly blurry and flat, but you'll like them better that way...

[BernardC]

Lots of "internet CEO" going on here! I'm sure that Leica knows exactly what they need to do, and it's certainly not to release the same camera that Panasonic released 6 months ago. people who want that feature set already own the S1/S1r.

 

Anyhow, the competition certainly isn't Panasonic. Leica know that future SL customers will own a Panasonic and a Sigma, in addition to an SL.

Also, have we had enough of the doomsaying? Panasonic knew what they were getting into with full frame. They identified a market and went for it. I'm sure they did not expect to be a sales leader right away (or ever, that's a race to the bottom). They have a long-term strategy (as does Leica), they won't change course every few hours, no matter how much the internets exhort them to do so.

[Chaemono]

I talk to a lot of CEOs and pressure them to change technology at the last minute. Most of them don’t. 😂

[colonel]

3 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I talk to a lot of CEOs and pressure them to change technology at the last minute. Most of them don’t. 😂

In my line of work I meet CROs not CEOs

They are generally less optimistic

 

[tom0511]

I am also using both the SL and S1r and have to say that eventhough the s1r for sure has some  technical features which makes sense and some buttons which makes sense I still believe the user interface of the SL much simpler and more fun to use. So I hope the SL2 will not change too much in regards of user interface and I believe the user interface alone will make some people prefer the Leicas over the Panas S1/r, if the rest of the new model works properly and is up to date in regards of technology.

 

[ron777]

2 hours ago, colonel said:

Again. This is just spec talk. Leica doesn’t compete on spec along. Anyone who buys cameras using check lists of spec alone, wouldn’t buy Leica. I mean compare an M9 to an A7 ....

Of course there may be things you need which the Leica hasn’t, but the SL is a very comprehensively specced model.

For those wanting innovation Leica doesnt' disappoint, for example, the first APS-C compact, the first professional mirrorless,  etc.

The raison d'etre though is not competing soley on a checklist basis, going for simplicity, workflow, build, etc.

The S1 is a completely different fiddly arrangement then the SL. As well as not being as handsome

If you want to talk spec, then the A7Riv wipes it’s nose with the S1R and IMHO far better handling for what it is ....

"The S1 is a completely different fiddly arrangement then the SL. As well as not being as handsome," Handsome? The SL is a flat slab of magnesium with a protrusion—called a grip—with a hole on its face for the lens.  It's anything but "handsome."  I'm wearing Kevlar, so flame away.

If you want to talk spec, then the A7Riv wipes it’s nose with the S1R and IMHO far better handling for what it is .... And as for the A7rIV being a better handling camera, you must have tiny little hands, as the camera is anything but ergonomically friendly.  OH, and BTW, check out the reports of noise in reference to the new Sony 61mp sensor.  But I get it, you're the new owner of an SL and you have to self-justify your purchase.

[colonel]

51 minutes ago, ron777 said:

"The S1 is a completely different fiddly arrangement then the SL. As well as not being as handsome," Handsome? The SL is a flat slab of magnesium with a protrusion—called a grip—with a hole on its face for the lens.  It's anything but "handsome."  I'm wearing Kevlar, so flame away.

If you want to talk spec, then the A7Riv wipes it’s nose with the S1R and IMHO far better handling for what it is .... And as for the A7rIV being a better handling camera, you must have tiny little hands, as the camera is anything but ergonomically friendly.  OH, and BTW, check out the reports of noise in reference to the new Sony 61mp sensor.  But I get it, you're the new owner of an SL and you have to self-justify your purchase.

Actually the Z7 and A7R iii wipe the floor with the S1R if you want to nitpick. 

as this is a Leica forum I have no compunction attacking the poorly designed S1 which is clearly failing in the market

I hope Penny does well with its next iteration and I also hope that Leica maintains its USP for the SL2 and hits it’s target sales

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[nicci78]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

A word of caution to those expecting a miraculously stonking new SL2: the TL2 was a fairly simple upgrade to the T/TL. It had very few changes, although those it made were enough to make me (and quite a lot of others) buy it:

- increased resolution: 16>24mp (NB equivalent to 24>36 for the SL).
- removed the built in flash.
- speed improvements all round, esp AF.
- NO change in form factor/design (too iconic to change? Doesn't apply to the SL, so perhaps expect changes here).
- NO major new technology.

And that all, folks!

Q2 was quite a massive update almost 4 years later : new weathersealed body 100% magnesium. Twice the resolution. OLED EVF. 4K etc.

TL2 was only 3 years later than T. And I think that its real update is the CL. And it is quite an improvement.  I just bet that we will never see a TL3. 

Leica also promise a massive update for SL2 in Stefan Schultz latest interview. Justifying the delay to 4 years. I bet that with an extra year it will be nice. 

[sillbeers15]

If Leica were to behave as they would normally do. I would expect specs and performance defined by Leica on SL2 independent of what the S1/R offers now, just as the original SL appeared in the wake of Sony alpha 7.

I have decided to commit on a SL2 in view of a preorder. However if it were spec @ 47MP and still CDAF, I might be cold feet and get a S1R instead.