Color Management: sRGB or Adobe RGB?

[Matsaly]

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My question pertains to my Q-P but I imagine its also relevant to my Q2. (Just haven't gotten that far in the owner's manual:) 

I'm getting back into the art of photography after a long hiatus. I just started dabbling with Adobe Lightroom Classic CC and took a weekend "immersion" class at a local Art college. During class the instructor strongly recommended that we set our respective cameras to use the Adobe RGB working color range. He said the Adobe RGB setting would allow for the maximum color range. He said that when we later create "export folders" to send JPEGS to friends & family that we should "downsample" to sRGB for the widest range of compatibility with the plethora of smart phones, tablets and PC's out there.

On P. 171 of the Q manual it states : 

Working color range

The requirements in terms of color reproduction differ considerably for the various possible uses of digital picture files. Different color ranges have therefore been developed, such as the standard RGB (red/green/blue) that is perfectly adequate for simple printing. For more demanding image processing using the corresponding programs, e.g. for color correction, Adobe® RGB has become established as the standard in the relevant sectors. ECI is used in many cases for professional prepress work. The Leica Q makes it possible to set the camera to one of these three color ranges, meaning sRGB, ECI, or Adobe RGB.

 

Can anyone give me some guidance/recommendation on the topic. I've poked around the web and from the limited amount of reading I've done the consensus is to use sRGB. FWIW- I do not do any printing.

Cheers!

 

 

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[zeitz]

I'm not quite sure what "simple printing" is.   When I print, I want the best print possible.  Your art college class instructor is giving sound advice.  sRGB is adequate for web uses.  Adobe RGB is a wider gamut (more colors) color space and is almost universally selected for uses that require the best image possible from your files.  There are other color spaces, such as Photo Pro, that is popular with some photographers but is problematic for me when I move images into other programs/formats such as a .pdf file.  I must admit I have never heard of ECI, and I don't remember seeing it in Photoshop.  In Photoshop you can see all the available color spaces under Edit/Assign Profile.  Assign Profile must be in Lightroom too, but I don't use Lightroom enough to know where it is.

[jaapv]

Adobe RGB is the wider colour space. For editing programs that give you a choice, it is always better to edit in Adobe RGB, provided that you use a monitor that can reproduce a significant portion. If the monitor is only sRGB, it is better to use sRGB unless you know exactly what you are doing. This is not relevant for LR, as it will handle the colours in the background (in ProPhoto if needed).
Note that when you dumb the colours down from Adobe RGB to sRGB it will  not be possible to render them in Adobe RGB again.

The choice the camera gives you is only relevant if you output JPGs. It is not recommended to use the JPG files for serious editing, as they will have been converted by the camera and have lost a significant amount of data.

So, if you use Lightroom, just shoot DNG and let Lightroom do the rest. The final output for either the Web or for some printers that are not Adobe RGB-enabled should be in sRGB.

[jaapv]

48 minutes ago, zeitz said:

I'm not quite sure what "simple printing" is.   When I print, I want the best print possible.  Your art college class instructor is giving sound advice.  sRGB is adequate for web uses.  Adobe RGB is a wider gamut (more colors) color space and is almost universally selected for uses that require the best image possible from your files.  There are other color spaces, such as Photo Pro, that is popular with some photographers but is problematic for me when I move images into other programs/formats such as a .pdf file.  I must admit I have never heard of ECI, and I don't remember seeing it in Photoshop.  In Photoshop you can see all the available color spaces under Edit/Assign Profile.  Assign Profile must be in Lightroom too, but I don't use Lightroom enough to know where it is.

DON'T (seriously!) use "assign profile". Use "convert to profile"  "Assign profile" is meant for use with untagged files and profile mismatches, ""convert to profile" is for switching profiles. Misuse can lead to rather nasty colour surprises.

ECI is possibly a typo for CIE, which is the commission that created the original RGB colour space iin 1931.  It is sometimes used as a prefix.

 

Edit:

I found ECI :

http://www.eci.org/en/start

 

It is completely irrelevant for our use.

[Matsaly]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Adobe RGB is the wider colour space. For editing programs that give you a choice, it is always better to edit in Adobe RGB, provided that you use a monitor that can reproduce a significant portion.

The choice the camera gives you is only relevant if you output JPGs. It is not recommended to use the RGB files for editing, as they will have been converted by the camera and have lost a significant data.

So, if you use Lightroom, just shoot DNG and let Lightroom do the rest. The final output for either the Web or for some printers that are not Adobe RGB-enabled should be in sRGB.

 

Re your 1st point - How can  tell if my monitor is Adobe "compatible". I have a 27 'iMac (2017 model).

As to your 2nd point- Am I understanding you correctly that the choice of "color space" only applies to JPEGS? If so then my dilemma is moot as I only shoot DNG/RAW.

In regards to your 3rd point I take it to mean that my LR "export" files should be downscaled to sRGB to assure computability with the widest array of end viewing devices (smart phones, tablets, older computers) 

 

 

 

 

 

[jaapv]

20 minutes ago, Matsaly said:

 

Re your 1st point - How can  tell if my monitor is Adobe "compatible". I have a 27 'iMac (2017 model).

As to your 2nd point- Am I understanding you correctly that the choice of "color space" only applies to JPEGS? If so then my dilemma is moot as I only shoot DNG/RAW.

In regards to your 3rd point I take it to mean that my LR "export" files should be downscaled to sRGB to assure computability with the widest array of end viewing devices (smart phones, tablets, older computers) 

 

 

 

 

 

You can find the colour space in the specification sheet of your monitor.

Raw files have no colour space. The colour space is created on the raw conversion in your postprocessing program. In Photoshop/ACR I use 16-bits Adobe RGB files. However, you don't need to worry about this in Lightroom, as it will only convert the DNG on export and create relevant JPEGs on the fly. And yes, web images should be in sRGB, it is wise to use sRGB  for unknown end users in general. You  cannot tell if they will be using an el-cheapo laptop or a fully-calibrated Eizo CG monitor.

 

[01af]

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb Matsaly:

During class the instructor strongly recommended that we set our respective cameras to use the Adobe RGB working color range. He said the Adobe RGB setting would allow for the maximum color range. He said that when we later create "export folders" to send JPEGS to friends & family that we should "downsample" to sRGB for the widest range of compatibility with the plethora of smart phones, tablets and PCs out there.

That's the ubiquitous half-baked myth promoted by those who heard about colour management at some point but didn't really understand it.

.

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Matsaly:

... the consensus is to use sRGB.

The rule of thumb is very simple: If you have to ask then use sRGB.

The colour space setting only applies to in-camera JPEG anyway. Raw data has no explicit colour space. In-camera JPEGS are for quick use without much (or ideally: without any) post-processing. So the proper colour space for general-use JPEG files is sRGB. Creating them in Adobe RGB first and downsampling them to sRGB later will result in data loss. Avoid that! In some cases, Adobe RGB or ECI RGB JPEGS have their uses—but if your usage was one of those cases then you'd know it. Normally, these non-standard JPEG files are exported from raw data to serve a special purpose, not created in-camera.

The proper way to shoot is raw format. At raw conversion time, you'd choose the colour space in your raw converter, matching the individual purpose of the exported image. You can export your image as many times as you want, once for each purpose ... for offset printing, for giclée printing, for display on tablet, for display on huge screen, for the web, etc.

[Nick_S]

12 minutes ago, 01af said:

That's the ubiquitous half-baked myth promoted by those who heard about colour management at some point but didn't really understand it.

Agreed, I don't really get the instructor's advice. Surely the most flexible approach is to work with RAW files using non-destructive software such as Lightroom, or RawTherapee (which will have their own default wide-gamut RGB colour space for editing, in this case ProPhoto RGB), then save the resulting file according to use --- AdobeRGB for printing or viewing on wider gamut monitors, sRGB for Web distribution where current browsers may not support colour management by default. For additionally saving in-camera JPEG format images at the time the photographs are taken, these may as well be in sRGB colour space so they can be viewed as 'proofs'  on a wide range of devices,  as you are unlikely to edit them being a lossy compressed image format.

Regarding the OP's monitor --- why make assumptions about the colour gamut, which can vary from monitor to monitor for a particular model, as well as  over time?. I would suggest purchasing a calorimeter (e.g.,  the Datacolor Spyder or X-Rite ColorMunki are relatively inexpensive) and using the free software DisplayCal which is a powerful calibration tool.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Nick_S

[zeitz]

I'm sorry if I implied you should use Assign Profile.  I only pointed it out as an easy place to see the color profiles in Photoshop.

[marchyman]

19 hours ago, Matsaly said:

Re your 1st point - How can  tell if my monitor is Adobe "compatible". I have a 27 'iMac (2017 model).

Mac displays/app are mostly color controlled.  They map whatever color space the image is in to the color space of the display.   Lightroom, for example, works in ProPhoto which is a much wider gamut than Adobe RGB.

Recent iMacs with 4K/5K retina displays use the Display P3 color gamut which is wider than sRGB.  See http://www.astramael.com for a good comparison of the gamuts.

[verwackelt]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

I found ECI :

http://www.eci.org/en/start

 

It is completely irrelevant for our use.

If you provide photos for european advert agencies, postproduction studios or preprint studios  "ECI RGB V2" is a common standard for editing the PSDs.
I convert all my work for my clients in ECI RGB V2 because they order it so.
As i know, ProPhoto and ECI RGB are very similar.

Edited August 14, 2019 by verwackelt

[jaapv]

25 minutes ago, marchyman said:

Mac displays/app are mostly color controlled.  They map whatever color space the image is in to the color space of the display.   Lightroom, for example, works in ProPhoto which is a much wider gamut than Adobe RGB.

Recent iMacs with 4K/5K retina displays use the Display P3 color gamut which is wider than sRGB.  See http://www.astramael.com for a good comparisphoto monitors are virtually non-exison of the gamuts.

Yes, but ProPhoto monitors are virtually non-existent.

LR does not export in ProPhoto and the previews are sRGB, but it does indeed process in ProPhoto.AFAIK.
I tried to see a difference between Adobe RGB and ProPhoto processed images in Photoshop, but to my eye the results were identical.

[jaapv]

16 minutes ago, verwackelt said:

If you provide photos for european advert agencies, postproduction studios or preprint studios  "ECI RGB V2" is a common standard for editing the PSDs.
I convert all my work for my clients in ECI RGB V2 because they order it so.
As i know, ProPhoto and ECI RGB are very similar.

I guess that your work is mostly published in offset print?

[verwackelt]

Both, in print and web.
I deliver ECI RGB PSDs and the mediaprovider generates the files with the needed profiles for Print, newspaper and Web.

[hdmesa]

To add to what others have already said, you can also export JPEGs from LR/C1 and use the Display P3 profile. Recent Apple mobile devices (X renders 100% P3 gamut), Safari browser, Instagram and Facebook are P3-complaint and display a wider gamut than sRGB. Non-P3 devices will translate to sRGB. I can see no conversion data loss between P3 rendered in sRGB and exporting straight to sRGB.

[Jared]

While the advice you have gotten has been good, I’ll try to summarize a bit and add a couple new pieces:

1) Raw files do not have a profile.  Once you save them into some other format they do.  That “other” format is usually JPG, but it could also be Photoshop (PSD) or almost anything else.  So the color space you choose in the camera menu applies only to the in-camera JPG’s, not to the raw files.  

2) If you shoot Raw then export JPG’s, you will need to choose a color space for the JPG’s.  By default that will be sRGB.  That is almost always the right choice for JPG’s, not because it is better but because it is universal.  If you try to display, for example, an Adobe profile image in software that is not color space aware—that doesn’t know what to do with anything that isn’t sRGB—the image will likely look incredibly washed out.  sRGB always works.

3) Your teacher referred to sRGB being appropriate for “simple printing” not because printing is simple, but because most printers will at least know what to do with sRGB images and will get things basically right.  Most printers have a fairly limited color palette, often much narrower than even sRGB, and they all have much lower contrast ranges than a decent monitor or iPhone, so good printing actually requires very careful profile management to convert from sRGB or any other color space, dedicated profiles for the particular printer model, ink, and paper, good monitor calibration, and usually “soft proofing” (where the monitor simulates the lower contrast and limited color gamut of the printer for you).  This is where you move away from “simple printing”.  The results are often better than just using sRGB, especially on images that are particularly dark or particularly light or particularly saturated.  Making good prints is a whole separate craft.

4) If you use Lightroom and shoot in Raw it will actually manage things (“Working Space”) in ProPhoto which is a wider gamut than Adobe 1998 and is similar to ECI.  It is intended to be “future proof”.  Current monitors can rarely cover a gamut even as wide as Adobe, so you are unlikely to see a benefit with ProPhoto at present, but it certainly won’t hurt anything, and it may occasionally help.  For example, while most printers and monitors generally have a much narrower profile than Adobe or even sRGB, they might have certain hues and tones that extend outside these standards, and it’s nice not to throw those colors away.  Also, the harder you push your files in terms of post processing, the more likely it is you will lose color detail if you are working in a narrower profile.  Good to have a wide gamut as your “working” space and move to sRGB for sharing with others or for sending an image over to Walgreens for printing.  So while your instructor’s advice wasn’t very nuanced, it was actually pretty reasonable.

[Matsaly]

Your advice is well thought out, nicely articulated and greatly appreciated. 

[Jared]

16 minutes ago, Matsaly said:

Your advice is well thought out, nicely articulated and greatly appreciated. 

Glad I could help!

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[ralphh]

2 hours ago, Jared said:

While the advice you have gotten has been good, I’ll try to summarize a bit and add a couple new pieces:

1) Raw files do not have a profile.  Once you save them into some other format they do.  That “other” format is usually JPG, but it could also be Photoshop (PSD) or almost anything else.  So the color space you choose in the camera menu applies only to the in-camera JPG’s, not to the raw files.  

2) If you shoot Raw then export JPG’s, you will need to choose a color space for the JPG’s.  By default that will be sRGB.  That is almost always the right choice for JPG’s, not because it is better but because it is universal.  If you try to display, for example, an Adobe profile image in software that is not color space aware—that doesn’t know what to do with anything that isn’t sRGB—the image will likely look incredibly washed out.  sRGB always works.

3) Your teacher referred to sRGB being appropriate for “simple printing” not because printing is simple, but because most printers will at least know what to do with sRGB images and will get things basically right.  Most printers have a fairly limited color palette, often much narrower than even sRGB, and they all have much lower contrast ranges than a decent monitor or iPhone, so good printing actually requires very careful profile management to convert from sRGB or any other color space, dedicated profiles for the particular printer model, ink, and paper, good monitor calibration, and usually “soft proofing” (where the monitor simulates the lower contrast and limited color gamut of the printer for you).  This is where you move away from “simple printing”.  The results are often better than just using sRGB, especially on images that are particularly dark or particularly light or particularly saturated.  Making good prints is a whole separate craft.

4) If you use Lightroom and shoot in Raw it will actually manage things (“Working Space”) in ProPhoto which is a wider gamut than Adobe 1998 and is similar to ECI.  It is intended to be “future proof”.  Current monitors can rarely cover a gamut even as wide as Adobe, so you are unlikely to see a benefit with ProPhoto at present, but it certainly won’t hurt anything, and it may occasionally help.  For example, while most printers and monitors generally have a much narrower profile than Adobe or even sRGB, they might have certain hues and tones that extend outside these standards, and it’s nice not to throw those colors away.  Also, the harder you push your files in terms of post processing, the more likely it is you will lose color detail if you are working in a narrower profile.  Good to have a wide gamut as your “working” space and move to sRGB for sharing with others or for sending an image over to Walgreens for printing.  So while your instructor’s advice wasn’t very nuanced, it was actually pretty reasonable.

I ran a photography and print studio for years and this is all excellent info and advice.  Colour space advice on the internet is often handed out by people who don't really seem to understand it and believe Adobe RGB is "better" for printing without realising that the colourspace of their printer has a good chance of being close to or even narrower than their RGB monitor and it only affects one colour (green) anyway. 

I personally don't really see the point of Adobe RGB unless you happen to be sending your images to someone else to print and you know their printer is likely closely aligned to Adobe RGB (sending an image to be printed in a magazine is a good example),  and your image has very strongly saturated greens.  Canon Pixma Pro printers are pretty closely aligned to the Adobe RGB colourspace so it might be a good option if you own one of those for example.

If you want maximum compatibility and least fuss use RGB.  If you want to geek out get max theoretical colourspace (understanding that the output will likely not be perceptibly different for most images, and the time of day you look at your print hanging on the wall will have a bigger impact on how the colours look that what colourspace you edited in) then use ProPhoto or Adobe.

I personally used RGB because a) my monitor was 100% sRGB, b) my printer was close to RGB and c) I didn't shoot any super saturated greens in my studio.

Edited August 15, 2019 by ralphh

[hdmesa]

On 8/15/2019 at 1:07 AM, ralphh said:

I ran a photography and print studio for years and this is all excellent info and advice.  Colour space advice on the internet is often handed out by people who don't really seem to understand it and believe Adobe RGB is "better" for printing without realising that the colourspace of their printer has a good chance of being close to or even narrower than their RGB monitor and it only affects one colour (green) anyway. 

I personally don't really see the point of Adobe RGB unless you happen to be sending your images to someone else to print and you know their printer is likely closely aligned to Adobe RGB (sending an image to be printed in a magazine is a good example),  and your image has very strongly saturated greens.  Canon Pixma Pro printers are pretty closely aligned to the Adobe RGB colourspace so it might be a good option if you own one of those for example.

If you want maximum compatibility and least fuss use RGB.  If you want to geek out get max theoretical colourspace (understanding that the output will likely not be perceptibly different for most images, and the time of day you look at your print hanging on the wall will have a bigger impact on how the colours look that what colourspace you edited in) then use ProPhoto or Adobe.

I personally used RGB because a) my monitor was 100% sRGB, b) my printer was close to RGB and c) I didn't shoot any super saturated greens in my studio.

There can be advantages to shooting in-camera JPEGs with the Adobe RBG profile:

1.  Aesthetics/Image Review: The in-camera preview/playback in the EVF/rear LCD gives a more realistic approximation of the dynamic range and color available in the DNG RAW file. Reviewing images may be more enjoyable as the images appear more film-like/cinematic.
2. Exposure: Histogram/exposure is based on a wider dynamic range, wider gamut JPEG preview, which may be of advantage when deciding where your highlights or shadows are going to clip. Not sure if it helps the exposure accuracy of the in-camera metering, but it seems like it could depending on the contrast/lighting in the shot.
3. JPEG-only shooters: Exporting JPEGs shot in Adobe RBG out of LR/C1/PS back to JPEG using the P3 Display profile will result in a wider gamut, web-ready image than shooting straight in sRGB.

Worth nothing that if the image below is accurate, I'm not sure there is any difference between [shooting directly in sRGB] and [exporting to sRBG from an Adobe RBG JPEG]. So although you shouldn't get attached to the full gamut of your Adobe RBG JPEG, you're not losing anything except compressing the image twice (once in-camera, once in post). The chart below also makes clear that shooting in DNG RAW and exporting to Display P3 is the best way to go: a decent portion of online viewers will be able too see the P3 gamut, the rest will see sRGB.

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