andybarton Posted July 30, 2007 Share #1 Posted July 30, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Brand is everything... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/29992-scary-stuff/?do=findComment&comment=317020'>More sharing options...
miami91 Posted July 30, 2007 Share #2 Posted July 30, 2007 Clearly Leica is getting some sort of royalty from Panasonic, regardless of whether they actually have any role in development of these optics. If that's what it takes to keep them alive, I guess it's good. It would be interesting to know the extent of the collaboration between the two companies, ie how much Leica know-how actually goes into the C-Lux, D-Lux, Digilux lines, or these Panasonic branded products. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 31, 2007 Share #3 Posted July 31, 2007 And interesting to know whether there's a per-piece royalty on use of the name, or whether it was just a "you can have our name if you'll make us cameras under it" deal. --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 31, 2007 Share #4 Posted July 31, 2007 Just an updated version of one of these LEICINA SUPER 8 LEICA CAMERA, BOXED, SUPERB CONDITION on eBay Movie, Film Cameras, Photography (item 140142379124 end time 06-Aug-07 11:24:06 BST) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 31, 2007 Share #5 Posted July 31, 2007 My guess is that Matsushita only pays a flat fee to use the Leica moniker ... I've no clue to the "co-operation" thing but from the materials that I've read such as Panasonic's engineers interviews and such ... it appeared that the only Leica standards they've complied with are all cosmetic stuff such as the fonts of the printed moniker, naming conventions etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted July 31, 2007 Share #6 Posted July 31, 2007 I know that Panasonic has used Leica's name on the HD video line's lenses for a while now. Panasonic's HD camcorders are no joke. Of Canon, Sony and Panasonic for prosumer HD, I would go with Panasonic. Interestingly, the other day I watched some baby videos at a friends house. I was knocked out my the optical quality and the muted, beautiful colors and the corner to corner sharpness and lovely focus. When I turned the tiny little camcorder around, sure enough--Leica! I honestly had no idea before I saw that, but my eye is trained to see the leica signature well enough to recognize it before I saw the name. That's quite a little camera up there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted July 31, 2007 Share #7 Posted July 31, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm with you, Sol. I use a Panasonic camera for a lot of video work. Its images are superiod to those of the other $4k cameras from the friendly competitors. This refers to the X100 and X100A and X100B. My only complaint about the camera is the micky mouse tape transport. The B version is substantially improved from the previous 2. An external tape drive is recommended for image guarantee (same recommendation for all the similar cameras, by the way). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 31, 2007 Share #8 Posted July 31, 2007 ... I've no clue to the "co-operation" thing but from the materials that I've read such as Panasonic's engineers interviews and such ... it appeared that the only Leica standards they've complied with are all cosmetic stuff such as the fonts of the printed moniker, naming conventions etc. Simon-- Below is a no-longer-accessible item posted on the old Leica forum on 8/25/2005 at http://www.leica-camera.com/discus_e/messages/3/157657.html?1125151589. Here is the whole story (at least as told by Panasonic): "Leica is a registered trademark of Leica Microsystems IR GmbH. Elmarit is registered trademarks of Leica Camera AG. The LEICA DC VARIO-ELMARIT lenses are manufactured using measurement instruments and quality assurance systems that have been certified by Leica Camera AG based on the company's quality standards." It would appear that the setting of tolerances during manufacture and checking of quality afterwards are done under the (distant?) supervision of Leica. Does the original design come from Leica? Perhaps not! see this also on the Panasonic Japanese site: ""Today, Panasonic and Leica Camera AG have built a solid relationship as partners. In the beginning, though, there were some difficulties to iron out." The lens on the DMC-LC20, which was marketed in April 2002, marked the first-generation lens to come from this collaboration. Ishiguro reflects on its rocky start, "We didn't get approval for the first lens that we submitted. In fact, right from the very start we had a sense that the collaboration itself was in danger. The problem wasn't in the lens itself, it was the fact that our appreciation of 'photorealism' had not yet reached the level that Leica Camera AG wanted." "Panasonic had been accumulating lens technology for about 20 years at that point. It had a proud history of developing many advanced technologies and products, such as the aspherical lens, that far exceeded the abilities of many other manufacturers in the industry. However, when it came to know-how about photorealism, that is, the art of forming highly nuanced images with a still camera, Panasonic was in an early learning stage. "Ishiguro explained, "For the DMC-LC20, Leica Camera AG insisted that we work more on resolution and distortion*. The level that they were aiming at called for much more than just making a few corrections. Responding to this was a major undertaking, partly because we were working against a deadline. Somehow, after revising the specifications and getting the factory to help us in our response, we were able to attain the level we needed."" In a nutshell, Panasonic's "Leica lenses" are manufactured in Japan by Panasonic (or a sub-contractor?) to designs and quality standards approved by Leica. In the past such collaborations were not so frankly described, but nowadays modern consumer and trading standards legislation requires otherwise. WN (wneilson) Member Username: wneilson Post Number: 44 Registered: 01-2005 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 31, 2007 Share #9 Posted July 31, 2007 To be honest, Howard ... I don't know, except those I've read from the magazines and web sites. At one time, there was a rumor on some Japanese web sites that Panasonic was seeking some kind of share exchange program ... mutual holdings as some put it ... with Leica. I'm glad that didn't happen ... now that's what I'd call SCARY. LOL As a consumer, I've nothing good to say about Panasonic products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 31, 2007 Share #10 Posted July 31, 2007 Ah Simon--we disagree again! As a consumer, I have nothing bad to say about Panasonic products. And my 3ccd mini DV camcorder (with the "Leica" lens) was way ahead of the competition at the time and (in good light) creates marvellous standard TV images. My Panasonic plasma TV is also wonderful (and their TVs have always been good, even when Sony was the head of the consumer crop). I even quite like my little Pana-Leica Lumix FZ1 point and shoot... an ASPH lens design, f2.8 and 12x optically stabilized / optical zoom... with 2 mp of data!! Sounds dumb, but that's still one fun PS... and that was the offering that started the mega zoom niche. For Leica's role in egging Panasonic to deliver something that--at the time--wild, well, good on them. Making groundbreaking optics is definitely a Leica quality. If the electronics / image processor weren't quite so dodgy at higher speeds, it would be a well-nigh perfect little camera--and half the size of my M8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 31, 2007 Share #11 Posted July 31, 2007 Never mind, Jamie ... I don't shoot video and I don't even have a TV at home - seriously. But all the Panasonic cameras I've tried ... FZ30, LC1 (I actually had the Digilux 2, returned it after 5 days with less than 80 shots) ... are very disappointing. Yes, I know ... bad mouthing the Digilux 2 is almost like a taboo on this board ... so I promise, this would be the last time I'd mention about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted July 31, 2007 Share #12 Posted July 31, 2007 I love my Panny plasma display, too, Jamie. I have an industrial 42" which was the best deal on the market two years ago. Afficionados will appreciate the clean design and blade-insert system for modular rear connections. How sweet is it to be able to pop out one component input and replace it with DVI or HDMI as needed? Also, the lack of onboard tuners and speakers is nice, since they usually are inferior anyway. The picture is beyond belief for that generation of plasma displays, and the units can be arrayed into grids sharing a single input. All for about $1500 two years ago. Panasonic is truly no joke in the video domain, and probably the best match for Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted July 31, 2007 Share #13 Posted July 31, 2007 If Sony had Leica written on the lens you some of you guys would be saying that they are the best. That's just how it is for the one eyed, rose coloured glasses mob. Panasonic does not produce quality top end video stuff, yet I am sure if they headed that way they could .................................but high volume consumerism is their game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted July 31, 2007 Share #14 Posted July 31, 2007 Imants, Oddly, I had "At least better than Sony" on the end of my post and deleted it not to start any flame war. I would be dismayed, to say the least, if Leica partnered with Sony on anything whatsoever. Canon/Leica camcorders, on the other hand...I might be OK with that partnership. But Panasonic is actually the best choice in this case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 31, 2007 Share #15 Posted July 31, 2007 Reality check ... who is behind the world's highest end 35mm digital cinematography camera system. Panavision: In Frame If Leica had the luck to partner with Sony, my view would be instantly changed ... 35mm FF sensor CCD or CMOS, the world's most powerful multimedia DSP ... are all within instant reach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 31, 2007 Share #16 Posted July 31, 2007 Imants-- An acquaintance of mine is director of broadcast engineering for a local TV station that has been broadcasting HDTV for, I don't know, five, eight years or so. He thoroughly detests and avoids Sony but has high respect for Panasonic. Through him, I attended the local introduction of one of the Panasonic HD cameras--the first one that did away with tape and used solid-state memory, I believe. IIRC, it was in the $3000-$4000 price range, the low end of the professional category. Supposedly, it promised performance comparable to that of a $7000 Sony. The camera had a Leica lens, of course, and all the attendees were very pleased with the brand and what they expected this camera to deliver. Simon-- Even though the poster of the original message didn't show a source for his quotation, I see no reason to denigrate it. I didn't copy the whole thread, but there was no subsequent argument against the point. It seems to me that the difference between us is that you tend to see the negative side for Leica, and I look instead to the positive side. In addition--as I've mentioned to you before--I like sources. I tend to regard as hearsay any general citation that I can't verify fairly quickly. (That's why I'm bothered by the lack of a listed source for the above article.) --HC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 31, 2007 Share #17 Posted July 31, 2007 Simon-- Even though the poster of the original message didn't show a source for his quotation, I see no reason to denigrate it. I didn't copy the whole thread, but there was no subsequent argument against the point. It seems to me that the difference between us is that you tend to see the negative side for Leica, and I look instead to the positive side. In addition--as I've mentioned to you before--I like sources. I tend to regard as hearsay any general citation that I can't verify fairly quickly. (That's why I'm bothered by the lack of a listed source for the above article.) --HC Howard, all the engineering grade Sony HD CAM started from 150000 US ... 5, 6 years ago, now they could still easily burn you a 50 or 60 grand US size hole in the pocket ... there's really no comparison. I've read a lot of similar stuff like the one you've posted, speaking of the "co-operation" between Leica and Panasonic, none of them has given any substance ... of course, these may very well be classified as their trade secrets. So far, we know Leica doesn't design these products, Leica doesn't build these products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted August 1, 2007 Share #18 Posted August 1, 2007 Every good director negotiates for final cut. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugby Posted August 1, 2007 Share #19 Posted August 1, 2007 All I can say is that Panasonic must have a secret Black-ops engineering department. Apart from the above mentioned products...They recently were the first to introduce 1080p HDTV. They recently came second only, to McIntosh for the best car-audio systems with the valve / tube CQ-TX5500W unit. I've been using one of these for the last few months and it so much better that the Nakamichi unit in my Lexus. They have very discrete high quality products that the average person does not see nor understand until you review them carefully. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/29992-scary-stuff/?do=findComment&comment=317888'>More sharing options...
ho_co Posted August 1, 2007 Share #20 Posted August 1, 2007 ...[A]ll the engineering grade Sony HD CAM started from 150000 US ... 5, 6 years ago, now they could still easily burn you a 50 or 60 grand US size hole in the pocket ... there's really no comparison. Simon, that's obvious. I even alluded to the fact that this was decidedly low-end. Want to quote a price on Panasonic "engineering grade" equipment? Please don't compare apples and oranges. The view taken by the producers present at the introduction was that high-quality video production is now in reach of any serious amateur. They were not planning to staff a TV station or a sound stage. You're saying, "Well, gosh, that building over there is 300 feet tall; why would you ever want to live in one only 20 feet tall?" Complete non sequitur. I've read a lot of similar stuff like the one you've posted, speaking of the "co-operation" between Leica and Panasonic, none of them has given any substance ... of course, these may very well be classified as their trade secrets. So far, we know Leica doesn't design these products, Leica doesn't build these products. How can you out of hand dismiss Panasonic's own release on the difficulties they had meeting Leica's standards by saying you've read similar stuff that has no substance? And the citation you deny gives the lie to your implication that Leica has no input to the design of the lenses. Basically, your comment is equivalent to: "Well, there's nothing you can trust here when Panasonic says they had a hard time meeting Leica's quality. We don't really know that." And most of us feel we saw definite proof in the Digilux 2 that Leica makes input to Panasonic designs. You say, "Leica doesn't build these products." Who cares, so long as they are produced to Leica standards? Just deny anything that doesn't fit your preconceptions; pursue your own course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.