swap nocti to apo summicron?

[Ouroboros]

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4 hours ago, jlindstrom said:

 

.....I was also thinking of swapping my m10 to m10-D, but I think I’ll pass on that. There’s nothing to gain in performance and the swap costs a lot... for the cost of the swap I could just buy 50 summilux and keep the nocti.

There's your answer!  Buy a summilux asph, use both for long enough to make an informed decision for yourself.

I once bought a late V4 Noctilux and an elmar-m together.  One for ....umm...because it was a Noctilux..... and the other as an antidote to the bulk, weight and horrendously slow ergonomics of the Noctilux.  The Noctilux is long gone (I hated it!) and the elmar-m still goes nowhere without me.

They real answer to these "What Should I Do...?" threads is work it out for yourself.

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[jlindstrom]

6 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

They real answer to these "What Should I Do...?" threads is work it out for yourself.

It always is. For me it’s just the way my mind works. I like to bounce off ideas from different people. It’s partially collecting bits of information & experiences and also just as much about clarifying my own thoughts, having people challenge my ideas.

Basically a good conversation, just over the forum👍

 

[Peter Kilmister]

History always tells a tale. Here's mine. I was so enamoured by what people said about the Noctilux 0.95 that I bought a second hand lens. It was a nightmare, all that cash for a lump (over 700 grams) that blocked the viewfinder. I used it very few times and couldn't see the benefit of ownership.It was worse than anything I had imagined. A nightmare to focus and weighed me down while plodding around the countryside. 

I advertised it for sale on the classified section of this Forum. A chap from Germany contacted me and asked if I would do a trade with an APO Summicron. We did a deal. A few weeks later the purchaser of the Noctilux had it up for sale. I still have my APO Summicron and it is the best lens I have ever owned. When my wife saw it she said, "That's a very pretty lens."

If you can please management then it must be good. If it looks good and it takes excellent photos then there is no argument.

[james.liam]

It might be wiser to rent each lens for a few days and see which, if either, suits your style of shooting and biceps endurance. Both cost what a second-hand car would, and you wouldn't buy the car without a test-drive, would you?

[jlindstrom]

^ Unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of such rental service in Finland, so it’s pretty much always a buying a pig in a bag.

Had an interesting read, with Thorsten interviewing Peter Karbe about the APO and it’s relation to Noctilux. It was pretty much stated that, Noctilux stopped down to f2 and beyond performs the same as APO. Even of there would be some differences, I’m sure my skills wouldn’t be enough to separate them. So in that sense there’s nothing to gain technically.

So the decision is pretty much: large size and 0.95-2.0 vs. small & light and loss of wider than f2.0.

[otto.f]

Stopping down to 2.8 and the Elmar-M 50 is probably the most charming of the three

[oka]

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57 minutes ago, jlindstrom said:

^ Unfortunately I don’t have the luxury of such rental service in Finland, so it’s pretty much always a buying a pig in a bag.

Had an interesting read, with Thorsten interviewing Peter Karbe about the APO and it’s relation to Noctilux. It was pretty much stated that, Noctilux stopped down to f2 and beyond performs the same as APO. Even of there would be some differences, I’m sure my skills wouldn’t be enough to separate them. So in that sense there’s nothing to gain technically.

So the decision is pretty much: large size and 0.95-2.0 vs. small & light and loss of wider than f2.0.

I might able to help you out, where are you based? If you're in Helsinki or visiting some time, just let me know. I have Noct50 0.95, APO50BC and Lux50BC which we can try out.

At f2 (or basically on any f), you cannot compare Noct to APO. DOF, contrast and whole rendering are quite different.

I personally don't like to use Noct on M, first is usability. You need to hassle with the ND which causes other problems (colors, even with good filters). Size is not so bad but it's much faster to focus with the APO50.

APO50 is small and quality (neutrality, bokeh smoothness, well almost everything) is just perfect, which makes pictures look bit clinical as the DOF is not as shallow as on Noct on same f.

I do however use Noct50 for my professional work as the main lens. With SL you don't have to hassle with the ND and focusing is much more easier and accurate, compared to the M when shooting at f/0.95.

Edited June 13, 2019 by oka

[SMAL]

One thing I wanted to add. In most cases, when people say the Noctilux is Hard to focus, their lens is not properly calibrated. With lenses like the Nocti 50/1, 50/0.95, 75/1.25 or even the Lux 75/1.4 you have to hunt for a good calibrated copy or send it to Leica WITH your body to get a perfectly matched to your camera. 

Those lenses can be pretty accurately focused, when everything is well adjusted. Take those words from someone who owns a 50/1 and 75/1.4 now and uses those regularly. 

[Milan_S]

Never sell a Leica Lens. I would add the 50 apo to the F.095 both are unique and so different in rendering. 

 

[jlindstrom]

2 hours ago, oka said:

I might able to help you out, where are you based? If you're in Helsinki or visiting some time, just let me know. I have Noct50 0.95, APO50BC and Lux50BC which we can try out.

APO50 is small and quality (neutrality, bokeh smoothness, well almost everything) is just perfect, which makes pictures look bit clinical as the DOF is not as shallow as on Noct on same f.

I do however use Noct50 for my professional work as the main lens. With SL you don't have to hassle with the ND and focusing is much more easier and accurate, compared to the M when shooting at f/0.95.

I’m based in Turku, but visit Helsinki area almost every week, so I just might get back to you on this. Thanks for offering a helping hand 👍

That perception of different dof at same f, do you think it’s really a dof thing or just difference in how the contrast falls off? I’ve been under the impression that same focal and same f equals similar dof, as it can be calculated.

You mention Noct on SL doesn’t need ND. Is that because SL can be set to a lower ISO or what’s the reason behind this?

Milan_s: I wish I could afford such luxury, but unfortunately can’t at the moment.

SMAL: Absolutely true. I used to own Summilux 75 back in the M8/M9 days. Before cla at Leica, it was a nightmare. And whilst it was bang on with the M8, it was immediately off when I got the M9. Luckily my Noctilux seems pretty perfect on my M10. I attribute missed shots more to my own fault than calibration, as there is more success than misses.

[oka]

28 minutes ago, jlindstrom said:

I’m based in Turku, but visit Helsinki area almost every week, so I just might get back to you on this. Thanks for offering a helping hand 👍

That perception of different dof at same f, do you think it’s really a dof thing or just difference in how the contrast falls off? I’ve been under the impression that same focal and same f equals similar dof, as it can be calculated.

You mention Noct on SL doesn’t need ND. Is that because SL can be set to a lower ISO or what’s the reason behind this?

Milan_s: I wish I could afford such luxury, but unfortunately can’t at the moment.

SMAL: Absolutely true. I used to own Summilux 75 back in the M8/M9 days. Before cla at Leica, it was a nightmare. And whilst it was bang on with the M8, it was immediately off when I got the M9. Luckily my Noctilux seems pretty perfect on my M10. I attribute missed shots more to my own fault than calibration, as there is more success than misses.

DOF looks different on different lenses and Noct is quite a extreme on this (it starts to blur the background much higher rate than example in APO50). On my eye, difference is so clear that I do not understand how anyone can say that Noct and APO50 looks same at f2.

It's same with SL-Summicron f2 lenses which Leica claims DOF looks like average f/1.4 used to look.

With SL you have ISO50 and 1/160000 (electronic)shutter (which is fine on outdoors) speed compared to 100/4000 on M10 so it has 3 stop advantage.

Edited June 13, 2019 by oka

[otto.f]

And the ISO 4000 photoos look much better on SL than on M10. This is ISO 12500 on SL (for what it's worth on the web): 

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[benqui]

I tried one time from a friend the Nocti 0.95 and did not like it. It is not the lens for my kind of photography (portrait, street, travel). I found it too heavy and bulky which is for me a no go on a travel. I have the Apo 50 and despite the superb quality of the lens, it is very small and handy. It is perfect on analog and digital Ms. Of course this is just my opinion, I can also understand people who love their Nocti. But especially in portraits, the wide open effect is  boring over time. But I think it is not lens which makes your photos unique, you know this for sure. Sometime I also use the collapsible Elmar 50 (travelling) and I do not see any difference when I shoot with 5.6 up to 16 in comparison to my Apo. 

Give them all a try and keep the lens which fits to your photography

[jlindstrom]

Tnx for your insight benqui 👍

Travel, street, portrait & family photos pretty much defines what I use my camera for. And all these within the context of family memories.

I’ll dig deeper into my lightroom archives and meditate some more. The weight savings is something like 300g, which is a lot.

[TG14]

18 hours ago, UliWer said:

 

If your aim is to get photos with very narrow depth of focus a Noctilux may be a means to achieve it. If you aim for photos with extreme micro contrast, it may be the  Apo. 

Would anyone have compare and contrast examples?

 

[benqui]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb TG14:

Would anyone have compare and contrast examples?

 

Maybe this is very difficult to see a difference with our small size Internet photos. And maybe it also depends on your own preference of postproduction. I shoot RAW with the Mono I and the Apo and without any Lightroom changes (contrast, lights....) the photo looks not good at all. Then you compare more or less photos which have been changed and it should be difficult to see any differences. To be honest I can not say which 50mm lens I used when I look at the photos

[oka]

...coud it be that you won the LHSA APO50? 😎

[jlindstrom]

Ok, having done lots of soul searching on this. Went through my lightroom archives and looked at how much was .95 and how much something else. Also looked at the distances and the subjects. I have to say it isn’t even close to 5% that was utilising .95 and not all of those were actually even keepers.

What benqui described earlier fits my photos as well, meaning mostly travel & family. And also the subject seems to be most of the time 2-3 meters out.

So I went and took the deal. It’ll take a couple of weeks to get the APO.

Naturally there are few shots, where I will miss the nocti, but workarounds do exist. In worst case, I’ll later on add 75 APO summicro, 50/1 nocti, 75 Summilux or some 90mm for the portraits. But I’m pretty certain that won’t happen.

So, when this swap is done, I’ll have the 28/2 (latest) and 50 APO. Light weight and very capable set for travel etc.

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[oka]

4 hours ago, jlindstrom said:

Naturally there are few shots, where I will miss the nocti, but workarounds do exist. In worst case, I’ll later on add 75 APO summicro, 50/1 nocti, 75 Summilux or some 90mm for the portraits. But I’m pretty certain that won’t happen.

If you do, just let me know! I do have also 75lux and 90cron what you can try!

[a.noctilux]

In my multi-decade Leica M experience, having only one 50mm is foolish or not explore the whole possibility of Leica M.

Only in Leica M choices, Noctilux can't be used as Summicron or Summilux 😞.

We are lucky to have choices of those f/0.95/1.4/2/2.5 ( Asph. or Apo or ...even f/3.5 for older Elmar ...).

In most case, I take time to explore each lens myself to "learn to know" their plus and minus and I use each as I want the picture to become or planned.

 

Compromises depend on each user, and we are all different with different needs.