The MF market and Fujifilm

[albireo_double]

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I think if Leica offered such an adapter for say Eur1500, they'd sell quite a few of them and perhaps a few more lenses.

[Photon42]

33 minutes ago, albireo_double said:

I think if Leica offered such an adapter for say Eur1500, they'd sell quite a few of them and perhaps a few more lenses.

I would agee on the adapters, but i am not sure a lot of photographers would actually buy a third party lens (from a Fujifilm perspective) for 6k with uncertain future regarding support and compatibility between lens and (Fuji) body.

[albireo_double]

Take my view with a pinch of salt. After a bottle of nice Pinot Gris. Notwithstanding, I think a few Fuji users could be intrigued by the Leica S lenses. I am really looking forward to some higher resolution body to use with the S lenses. In the meantime, keeping myself amused with an old RZ67 ProIID and an IQ280 back (see below, probably breaking at least 17 rules of this forum...so strike me down, if required).

 

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[peterv]

I don't know much about marketing, but I would personally think that the first company that finishes basically what the Leica S system started 10 years ago - namely create a completely open system with company-made and fully supported adapters for all brands - could count on a lot of sympathy from amateur and pro photographers alike. 

Basically you'd have a really good sensor in a nice customisable box and you could adapt any medium format lens you like, fully functional and supported of course with autofocus and aperture control, lens profiles, you name it. 

We would finally get to choose a wide range of MF lenses for their effect/look like cinematographers do:

https://www.fdtimes.com/2019/03/26/sasaki-cioni-and-panavision-large-format/

https://www.arri.com/en/camera-systems/cameras/alexa-mini-lf

Perhaps being stuck with one brand/mount is going out of style 🙂

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[Photon42]

On 3/29/2019 at 10:17 PM, albireo_double said:

Take my view with a pinch of salt. After a bottle of nice Pinot Gris. Notwithstanding, I think a few Fuji users could be intrigued by the Leica S lenses. I am really looking forward to some higher resolution body to use with the S lenses. In the meantime, keeping myself amused with an old RZ67 ProIID and an IQ280 back (see below, probably breaking at least 17 rules of this forum...so strike me down, if required).

Seems you are sorted 😊

Of course it would attract the S user community - so you can match existing lenses with a new body. From company's perspective, I doubt Fuji users will buy the hypothetical adapter to purchase new Leica lenses. I bought quite some adapters (used) for my S. None of the lenses I used the adapter with, was a newly purchased one.

[Joakim]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:26 PM, helged said:

I agree that manual focus is ok for many situations (at least for me). Fixed aperture is, however, strongly limiting the flexibility and usefulness of the S-lenses (as any other lenses).

Yes I agree. I forgot to write that but it must be an electronic adapter that can control the aperture 

[albertknappmd]

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On 3/28/2019 at 11:06 AM, rosuna said:

This interview is very interesting:

https://www.fujirumors.com/dpreivew-fujifilm-managers-interview-no-need-to-open-x-mount-ai-and-global-shutter-are-the-future-gfx100-within-end-of-june/

The sell at lower prices but doing so they expand the market. 

Is the Leica S system capable of some evolution that allows for more customers?

 

 

Leica increases its S customer base, in my opinion, every time it UPGRADES the basic camera. This results in a price decrease for the "older" modelsmaking them more affordable...

I have absolutely no data to confirm this but I hope it is true!!!!

Albert 😎

Albert

[xiaubauu2009]

3 hours ago, albertknappmd said:

Leica increases its S customer base, in my opinion, every time it UPGRADES the basic camera. This results in a price decrease for the "older" modelsmaking them more affordable...

I have absolutely no data to confirm this but I hope it is true!!!!

Albert 😎

Albert

It's very logical, older model is like 15%~20% of the price in the second hand market of a current model, and model with corroded sensor is even less than that. This make going into a premium brand a very good and attractive proposition. A good working order S006 is less than a price of a updated sensor M9p.

[Stuart Richardson]

I asked about trade in values for my S006 and S2, and a Leica store in Europe offered me 1000-1500 euros each. I said no thank you. Those prices are ABYSMAL. It is no wonder people are cranky. I was lucky enough to have gotten the S006 for a good price as a demo, but the S2 was full price. It is now worth a little less than 1/20th of what I bought it for (as a trade in at least). I can't think of another camera which has lost so much value. Even old phones do better than that...

[Stuart Richardson]

I should just add that while they have lost value, they have lost surprisingly less in utility. That is why I have not sold them, they are still absolutely fantastic cameras. It is really odd to me that they are worth so little...I think it has to be the lenses...I have had a number of people interested in the bodies when they were worth 4000-6000 dollars, and people were willing to stomach the body, but when they saw that it would cost them another ten thousand dollars or more to buy a simple wide, standard, telephoto set of native lenses, even used, they ran away. This is where Fuji really runs away with the market...a body is useless without lenses, and you can get a decent kit of native lenses for the price of a single Leica lens. The 45mm 2.8 Elmarit CS is 8000 dollars at B&H, and the Fuji 45mm 2.8 is 1700 dollars. If you add the body to the cost of the lens, you are looking at 28000 dollars plus tax for the Leica and 45mm compared to 5200 (!) USD for the Fuji. With the Fuji you also get 13 more megapixels...more like 20 more megapixels if you crop to 4x5. Meanwhile, with Leica there is also not much in the way of valuing the initial investment...there is no real upgrade program, and the used values are terrible. As I have said a number of times, I would love an S3, but the value proposition these days is tough...I just don't see anyone who does not already have tens of thousands invested in lenses being too convinced by the S system. I am sure they are out there, and I think there are many great reasons that the S is a superb choice, but the price is simply totally out of line with the current market.

[Photon42]

Leica lenses being four and more times more expensive than comparably specified gear is not really big news. I took a relatively cheap entrance path to the S system about two years back with an S2 and two adapters and used Contax and CF lenses i happened to have already. It did not stay there 😉 I bought none of my items except a Metabones adapter and a battery new. Trade-in values are horrible, but you can snatch up good deals on bodies and lenses. I do not think I will ever sell my S system. Why would I want to? I smile every time I pick it up. Same with the M. Fuji does not give me this.

[Stuart Richardson]

You are right to a certain extent, but it is different when you are comparing a 50mm 1.8 Canon EF lens to the 50mm APO Summicron. These Fuji lenses are quite comparable in performance...at least in my testing. The 63mm performed as well as the 70mm S lens in my test, in some ways better, though with a different feel. Leica lenses might be 5 times the price of some lower end lenses for 35mm, but the lenses we are comparing here are superb optics. Anyway, I know all about the Leica premium...I have been paying it for years, but it is getting a bit out of hand.

[Photon42]

It is the S class effect 😶

[alan.y]

10 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I should just add that while they have lost value, they have lost surprisingly less in utility. That is why I have not sold them, they are still absolutely fantastic cameras. It is really odd to me that they are worth so little...I think it has to be the lenses...I have had a number of people interested in the bodies when they were worth 4000-6000 dollars, and people were willing to stomach the body, but when they saw that it would cost them another ten thousand dollars or more to buy a simple wide, standard, telephoto set of native lenses, even used, they ran away. This is where Fuji really runs away with the market...a body is useless without lenses, and you can get a decent kit of native lenses for the price of a single Leica lens. The 45mm 2.8 Elmarit CS is 8000 dollars at B&H, and the Fuji 45mm 2.8 is 1700 dollars. If you add the body to the cost of the lens, you are looking at 28000 dollars plus tax for the Leica and 45mm compared to 5200 (!) USD for the Fuji. With the Fuji you also get 13 more megapixels...more like 20 more megapixels if you crop to 4x5. Meanwhile, with Leica there is also not much in the way of valuing the initial investment...there is no real upgrade program, and the used values are terrible. As I have said a number of times, I would love an S3, but the value proposition these days is tough...I just don't see anyone who does not already have tens of thousands invested in lenses being too convinced by the S system. I am sure they are out there, and I think there are many great reasons that the S is a superb choice, but the price is simply totally out of line with the current market.

I've seen one used copy of the non-CS S45 go for about USD $2300 (admittedly an exceptionally low price). The S35 and S70 regularly sell for $2000. Bought used S lenses aren't necessarily worse investments than Fuji. Hopefully the S3's arrival will revive interest in the S lenses. 

I bought my first S007 at a price close to MSRP. Never again.

Edited April 2, 2019 by alan.y

[Photon42]

The 007 is roughly at about 1/3 of its original price. I guess that is somewhat the same with most digital cameras and should be expected when buying new (I did buy new Ms, btw ...). An M240 isn't any better in this regard. I do understand your frustration, but the S is still an outstanding camera today. Just don't sell it. The benefit is gives you is pleasure in photography, not dollars. As you rightfully say, there are lots of good lens deals out there.

[BerkMillers]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Photon42:

... I do not think I will ever sell my S system. Why would I want to? I smile every time I pick it up. Same with the M. Fuji does not give me this...

Coming from the M system now my new Fuji GFX 50R puts a smile on my face every time i pick it up.

Always wanted to test digital MF and I´m thankful that Fuji made the step to introduce an affordable system to the market.

I have never even considered about purchasing a digital (used) S with its ridiculous high prices.

Coming from M system I´m aware of the premium you have to pay, and I´m no more willing to do so... ok, each to his own, but for me Fuji is the way to go.

[Stuart Richardson]

14 hours ago, alan.y said:

I've seen one used copy of the non-CS S45 go for about USD $2300 (admittedly an exceptionally low price). The S35 and S70 regularly sell for $2000. Bought used S lenses aren't necessarily worse investments than Fuji. Hopefully the S3's arrival will revive interest in the S lenses. 

I bought my first S007 at a price close to MSRP. Never again.

This is exactly my point Alan. The prices do make sense used...they do not make sense new. That is clearly a problem for the future of the system. The market is saying that your product is worth well less than half of what you have set the retail price. Sure, a few people will still buy it, but it is out of sync. Anyway, I understand this line of reasoning is pretty tiresome...there is not much we can do about it other than wait and hope. It is on my mind because I genuinely love what Leica makes and the philosophy behind their camera systems, but sometimes they can be intractable about these things in a way that serves neither them nor their customers.

[Photon42]

5 hours ago, BerkMillers said:

Coming from the M system now my new Fuji GFX 50R puts a smile on my face every time i pick it up.

Always wanted to test digital MF and I´m thankful that Fuji made the step to introduce an affordable system to the market.

I have never even considered about purchasing a digital (used) S with its ridiculous high prices.

Coming from M system I´m aware of the premium you have to pay, and I´m no more willing to do so... ok, each to his own, but for me Fuji is the way to go.

So we are are all happy campers 😎

Used S cameras are not much more expensive than new Fujis MF. But I guess we are leaving the topic slightly. I congratulate Fuji for its move. Bold one when it happened and reasonable from the perspective of an APS-C offering. Of course the price point is important. When Leica came out with the S2, they were competitive more or less with the existing players Hasselblad and P1. Now the situation is somewhat different with new contenders (X1D, Fuji, Pentax) and they seem to move into a place where they are with the SL and M.

However a lot of people always check other systems just because the next technology incarnation of their existing one does not answer some challenges the competitors come up with. This no matter how well the present systems works. That was my point.

My entry ticket to MF was mostly likely cheaper than yours, btw.

[Photon42]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

[...]. Sure, a few people will still buy it, but it is out of sync.  [...]

Really not more in relative terms than used M240s. In absolute terms, however ... 

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Hallo,

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[xiaubauu2009]

10 hours ago, Photon42 said:

So we are are all happy campers 😎

Used S cameras are not much more expensive than new Fujis MF. But I guess we are leaving the topic slightly. I congratulate Fuji for its move. Bold one when it happened and reasonable from the perspective of an APS-C offering. Of course the price point is important. When Leica came out with the S2, they were competitive more or less with the existing players Hasselblad and P1. Now the situation is somewhat different with new contenders (X1D, Fuji, Pentax) and they seem to move into a place where they are with the SL and M.

However a lot of people always check other systems just because the next technology incarnation of their existing one does not answer some challenges the competitors come up with. This no matter how well the present systems works. That was my point.

 My entry ticket to MF was mostly likely cheaper than yours, btw.

I don't think it's matter of just answering what the competition is doing, S has a problem even standing on its own. And don't think we need to revisit it. 

At the time of S introduction to the market, the 'cheap' option for the MF market is the Pentax 645D, and to be honest, their optics is nowhere near as capable as the S glass and Leica do have such appeal compare to PhaseOne in terms of IQ if you don't consider adapting those digital back to a tech cam. (Since P1 was just basically rebadging some mamiya 645 lens, the IQ is hit and miss). It was a good time for S I guess, you can even call it revolutionary. Somehow, they remain static for 10 years, and see what this lead them... (Static only compare to the market)

Also, I don't think S should be considered or viewed like the M, M is a unique one of a kind experience that nobody else is doing. Hence it can afford to be 'out of sync'. S... on the other hand... is a MF, with SLR design, promising to deliver uncompromising IQ, and rugged reliability... quite a few product appear in the market with these quality and even small company like P1 manage to dig itself out from the hole with the XF and the new blue ring monster lens while some company like Hassy manage to dig itself back into the oblivion with their closed system digital back and the half ass X1D.

Anyway, not that important now as S is kind of affordable in MF terms second hand and people buy it to get the Leica color science or just to fulfill a desire to owned the most expensive Leica equipment.

Edited April 4, 2019 by xiaubauu2009