M6 TTL - known problems and viewfinders

[Ivan25]

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Hi - I’m new to the forum and looking to get into the world of Leica. 

Im considering the M6 TTL, as I prefer the larger shutter speed dial, but principally think I want the 0.58 viewfinder as I’ll largely be using a 28mm lens. 

Couple of questions:

1. Do all M6 models’ zinc top plates ‘bubble’ - even the titanium version? How much of a problem is this really? Is getting an MP to avoid this issue OTT? 
2. Assume the 0.58 is the best for principally using a 28mm lens - but is also fine with a 35mm?
3. Does wearing glasses make any difference to the viewfinder options and would a particular eye piece magnifier be best? 
4. 0.58s seem to be scarce - any recommended retailers in the UK?

Many thanks

Ivan 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Ivan25

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[pixie]

I bought M6TTL in 2000 thinking my pro work M3 was getting long in tooth.(old!)

I way prefer the M3, in spite of pleasure of inboard meter!!

The frames are very inaccurate. I required a repair to frame selector. Expensive.

The 28mm frame on mine is so close to edges, i thought it wasn't there..(without glasses).

Note! no new circuits available if it fails on M6-TTL.

Of course it is now 19 years old! A kid compared to M3 used since 1967.

Whatever the faults they the Leica-M are great cameras, so enjoy!

 

 

[spydrxx]

IMHO the M6 was a fine camera when introduced, but having owned an M6TTL, I think it was overrated, and some, as you know, are now experiencing issues which can no longer be fixed, while older models, such as the M2, M3, M4, keep chugging along with periodic CLAs. And yes being an eyeglasses wearer does make a difference as your eye is significantly further removed from the viewfinder. I struggled with eyeglasses, contact lenses, add-on diopters on my M bodies for years. For me, at least, I kept the glasses...making sure my prescription coincided with the viewfinder image being sharp, and learned to compensate for what are inherent inaccuracies in frame lines. Now I no longer worry about  those issues. One additional thought though...0.58 vf, while good for wide angle lenses, is less good for many people whose tastes change toward longer focal length lenses, as it is increasingly hard to achieve accurate, spot on focus with a small image. Just something to take into consideration.

[TomB_tx]

I wouldn't be concerned about the zinc top plates. That material and plating was also used on the plain M6 and I believe on the R4 series, and I've seen no sign of issues with the M6 I've had since 1985 and several R bodies of that vintage.

[plaidshirts]

On 3/26/2019 at 5:07 PM, Ivan25 said:

Hi - I’m new to the forum and looking to get into the world of Leica. 

Im considering the M6 TTL, as I prefer the larger shutter speed dial, but principally think I want the 0.58 viewfinder as I’ll largely be using a 28mm lens. 

Couple of questions:

1. Do all M6 models’ zinc top plates ‘bubble’ - even the titanium version? How much of a problem is this really? Is getting an MP to avoid this issue OTT? 
2. Assume the 0.58 is the best for principally using a 28mm lens - but is also fine with a 35mm?
3. Does wearing glasses make any difference to the viewfinder options and would a particular eye piece magnifier be best? 
4. 0.58s seem to be scarce - any recommended retailers in the UK?

Many thanks

Ivan 

Hello Ivan,

1. This was corrected with later M6 and TTL. I had an early one that bubbled and now have a TTL that is fine.

2. I've never used a .58 VF but I would guess so as 35mm is huge on the .72 VF of my M2.

3. I wear glasses and have 3 bodies with .72, .85 and .91 VFs and have heard .58 is best for people with glasses but I've found you adapt to whatever you have.

4. I can't help you here but I've learned from this forum that The Classic Camera should be avoided.

[Paulus]

Am 28.3.2019 um 16:12 schrieb plaidshirts:

Hello Ivan,

1. This was corrected with later M6 and TTL. I had an early one that bubbled and now have a TTL that is fine.

2. I've never used a .58 VF but I would guess so as 35mm is huge on the .72 VF of my M2.

3. I wear glasses and have 3 bodies with .72, .85 and .91 VFs and have heard .58 is best for people with glasses but I've found you adapt to whatever you have.

4. I can't help you here but I've learned from this forum that The Classic Camera should be avoided.

I used a M6TTL 0.58 for a year or so, next to my 0.72. I did not see the usefulness of it so sold it. The 28mm is fine, but also if you have the 0.72 which tends to focus better. ( because of the enlargement) . 

To my recollection the last M6TTL 's had a solid brass top. Just like the M7 and later MP. That why I bought the M6TTL. The M6 Titan I had did not only dent on the top because of the zink, but also bladdered/ bubbled  titanium ( but so did my titanium 2.0/35mm sum micron asph) . 

[stray cat]

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I have three M6TTLs - one of each viewfinder magnification; all from the year 2000. I also have an M2.

I use the M2 when I really feel like getting back to the essence of photography by estimating the exposures. I use the M6TTLs when I travel and/or when I really want the pictures. They are all extraordinarily well-built, reliable and easy cameras to use. With the M6TTLs there are no framelines for 135mm on the .58 and no framelines for 28mm on the .85. I tend not to use 35mm on the .85 nor the 90mm on the .58 but have done so completely successfully with both. My cameras have no "zinc bubbling" that I can see and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't bother me if they did. I don't wear eyeglasses but I'd assume that the .58 viewfinder would suit eyeglass wearers better than the others. The frames are just as accurate, and just as easy for me to use, as are the frames of the M2, despite there being multiple frames in the viewfinder. One uses what is there. I have never missed focus on an M6TTL or on an M2 because of some supposed deficiency in the viewfinder. Including the dreaded so-called "viewfinder flare".

I had the choice of buying M6TTLs or M7s, MPs or any other camera. I chose M6TTLs. That's just me - others will have different wants/needs/criteria etc. I also happen to like and value the TTL flash capability and the fact that, should the battery fail for any reason, I still have access to all shutter speeds and non-meter functions of the camera.

Please let us know what you decide, Ivan, and where your journey takes you.

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by stray cat

[Steve Ricoh]

Ivan, I presume you're aware the M6 is prone to rangefinder flare in front lighting conditions; in fact approx +/- 30 degrees off bore-sight of a strong light source, esp. sunlight.

There are solutions, eg cover the rangefinder illumination window with tape or finger.

 

[TomB_tx]

I used my M6 for 25 years with the RF flare issue, and never worried about it - just a minor annoyance to me.

However, a few years ago had DAG rework it to fix that and also install the multicoated window from the MP, and it made a big difference. Not quite up to Zeiss Ikon ZM or M10, but close.

[stephenkor]

I had two M6, one black and one silver chrome. The black one has the zinc bubbling on the top plate. Does it affect your image quality? -- no! Does it annoy you? -- it depends... but not for me... M6 is not well known for its built quality to its predecessors,  but the convenience while shooting. I now have a silver chrome M6 TTL and just want to focus on the shooting.    

[philipus]

Hi Ivan

1. I use the TTL with the 0,72x viewfinder. It's a 2000 model, the Millennium. If you are concerned about bubbling (I would not be if I were you), then get one of these black paint beauties. They cost considerably less than an MP and are actually more nicely finished imho. I know some have concerns about the electronics but honestly I don't care about that. Mine ticks along fine and if the electronics break beyond repair well then I'll just use it meterless. 

2+3. I sometimes wear glasses but find that even with the 0,72x I have no problems seeing the 28mm framelines. 28mm is basically the entire viewfinder on a 0,72x viewfinder meaning that focal length is super easy to use on such a camera. I also like that the 0,72x has lines for all six focal lengths.

4. Since the UK is still in the EU why not buy from an established dealer on mainland Europe? The important thing is to get 1) warranty and 2) return possibility. There are several good ones like Leicashop, Meister Camera in Hamburg and Berlin, Newoldcamera and Fotohandel Delfshaven to name a few. Given the short supply of the 0,58x (if you decide to go for that model) you'll increase your chances. I would, however, seriously consider the 0,72x as the most versatile model.

Good luck and don't hesitate to come back with further questions.

Philip

 

On 3/27/2019 at 1:07 AM, Ivan25 said:

Hi - I’m new to the forum and looking to get into the world of Leica. 

Im considering the M6 TTL, as I prefer the larger shutter speed dial, but principally think I want the 0.58 viewfinder as I’ll largely be using a 28mm lens. 

Couple of questions:

1. Do all M6 models’ zinc top plates ‘bubble’ - even the titanium version? How much of a problem is this really? Is getting an MP to avoid this issue OTT? 
2. Assume the 0.58 is the best for principally using a 28mm lens - but is also fine with a 35mm?
3. Does wearing glasses make any difference to the viewfinder options and would a particular eye piece magnifier be best? 
4. 0.58s seem to be scarce - any recommended retailers in the UK?

Many thanks

Ivan 

[wlaidlaw]

I would not touch an M6 TTL with a barge pole for reasons I will explain later. I used to have one and it was a very fine camera. My personal preference is the 0.72 or 0.85 VF as I find the 0.58 too small and very marginal to focus a Nocti. I sold mine to buy an M7 in 2002, which sadly turned out to be a "Friday" camera, compounded by very poor service from Leica at Milton Keynes. I sold it for a Contax G2. Strangely my more recent purchase of an M7 two years ago has also been a nightmare of unreliability, which was found mainly to be due to a very poor previous service or repair - I wonder who might have done that??

The reason I would not now buy an M6TTL is that the circuit boards are slightly hygroscopic, maybe due to inadequate removal of flux. This can and not infrequently does lead to failure from corrosion. If this happens, you have an expensive paper weight where a lot of the functionality will disappear. There are NO new replacements available for these boards. Occasionally DAG in the USA will have a second hand board, but these are like gold dust. Alan Starkie of Cameraworks-UK is hoping at some future date to offer either a repair service and once he has a few in stock, a service exchange replacement system. However, it will depend on how some experimentation proceeds and the availability of a substitute control chip. Given how difficult it has been to get a replacement motor drive shaft/intermediate gear spindle for my M7, I would guess that M7 parts are going to be a major issue in the near future as well. 

Wilson

[Paulus]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb wlaidlaw:

I would not touch an M6 TTL with a barge pole for reasons I will explain later. I used to have one and it was a very fine camera. My personal preference is the 0.72 or 0.85 VF as I find the 0.58 too small and very marginal to focus a Nocti. I sold mine to buy an M7 in 2002, which sadly turned out to be a "Friday" camera, compounded by very poor service from Leica at Milton Keynes. I sold it for a Contax G2. Strangely my more recent purchase of an M7 two years ago has also been a nightmare of unreliability, which was found mainly to be due to a very poor previous service or repair - I wonder who might have done that??

The reason I would not now buy an M6TTL is that the circuit boards are slightly hygroscopic, maybe due to inadequate removal of flux. This can and not infrequently does lead to failure from corrosion. If this happens, you have an expensive paper weight where a lot of the functionality will disappear. There are NO new replacements available for these boards. Occasionally DAG in the USA will have a second hand board, but these are like gold dust. Alan Starkie of Cameraworks-UK is hoping at some future date to offer either a repair service and once he has a few in stock, a service exchange replacement system. However, it will depend on how some experimentation proceeds and the availability of a substitute control chip. Given how difficult it has been to get a replacement motor drive shaft/intermediate gear spindle for my M7, I would guess that M7 parts are going to be a major issue in the near future as well. 

Wilson

After reading the above, I'm glad I sold my 3 M6ttl's , the last one was a M6TTL chrome " Die Letzten " . Never touched a M7 in my life. I still don't know why , but the camera did not appeal to me. Are the circuit boards of the MP also hygroscopic?

[wlaidlaw]

2 minutes ago, Paulus said:

After reading the above, I'm glad I sold my 3 M6ttl's , the last one was a M6TTL chrome " Die Letzten " . Never touched a M7 in my life. I still don't know why , but the camera did not appeal to me. Are the circuit boards of the MP also hygroscopic?

I believe this was limited to the M6TTL boards. My current M7 which is 2003, is not showing any corrosion on its board, its problems were mainly mechanical or electro-mechanical (shutter release magnet alignment). 

Wilson

Edited May 14, 2019 by wlaidlaw

[philipus]

Wilson

This intrigues me. Could you provide some support for your statement below or is it only your opinion?

 Br

Philip

On 5/14/2019 at 7:08 PM, wlaidlaw said:

The reason I would not now buy an M6TTL is that the circuit boards are slightly hygroscopic, maybe due to inadequate removal of flux. 

[mdp]

On 5/14/2019 at 6:08 PM, wlaidlaw said:

If this happens, you have an expensive paper weight where a lot of the functionality will disappear. 

I thought you just lose the light meter, other than that the rest of the camera is mechanical. Correct me if I'm wrong though. 

[Matlock]

9 hours ago, mdp said:

I thought you just lose the light meter, other than that the rest of the camera is mechanical. Correct me if I'm wrong though. 

You are quite correct. The M6TTL is a fine camera, I have had one in constant use since 2001 and it has always performed faultlessly. I have a number of friends with them who have never had any problems. With these forums you always have the "profits of doom" who have to make negative comments.

[jmahto]

21 hours ago, mdp said:

I thought you just lose the light meter, other than that the rest of the camera is mechanical. Correct me if I'm wrong though. 

I did some googling and learned that you are correct for M6TTL. It is M7 which has electronic controlled shutter. 

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[mdp]

14 minutes ago, jmahto said:

I did some googling and learned that you are correct for M6TTL. It is M7 which has electronic controlled shutter. 

I thought so. The battery went flat once on my M6ttl and it carried on working fine, other than the meter. 

[EoinC]

I’ve had a M6TTL for several years, and it is fine. I generally don’t use the light meter, as I always forget to set the shutter dial to ‘off’, resulting in drained batteries, but no problem.

I love it.