The broken dream of the M60

[epand56]

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If there is an object in this world I do not really understand, that is the M60.
It's like driving a Ferrari with the engine, the wheels and the technology of an Opel Kadett.

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[andrea-i]

2 hours ago, epand56 said:

If there is an object in this world I do not really understand, that is the M60.
It's like driving a Ferrari with the engine, the wheels and the technology of an Opel Kadett.

The "engine" is acutally that of an M246, I think. 
As for the rest, I literally do not use anything else on my M8 that is not already on that M60.
And when compared to a film M, it pretty much only lacks the timed shutter option and that's about it, so I don't understand why people seem to love the film M bodies and then be so perplex about the same thing just digital (well, aside from the price).
 

[Exodies]

In the mechanical realm minimalism has reliability advantages. In the digital realm minimalism is just taking the piss.

[a.noctilux]

1 hour ago, andrea-i said:

The "engine" is acutally that of an M246, I think. 
...
 

The M Edition 60 was based on M-P (typ 240),

if it was based on M(typ 246), it would be the dream * "Monochrom M60",

but that wasn't the case.

 

*

if that was the case, I'd bought it years ago 😎 screenless Monochrom

[andrea-i]

1 hour ago, Exodies said:

In the mechanical realm minimalism has reliability advantages. In the digital realm minimalism is just taking the piss.

This is funny because a lot of people actually thing that about any digital leica M, I think this is all very subjective and there's no way out of these kind of arguments : )
I think the wifi connected and screenless M10-D is actually the real advancement in technology, less things to break on the camera with same final functionality.

46 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

The M Edition 60 was based on M-P (typ 240),

if it was based on M(typ 246), it would be the dream * "Monochrom M60",

but that wasn't the case.

 

*

if that was the case, I'd bought it years ago 😎 screenless Monochrom

I always get confused, I think it could be based on the 262 then, no video, maybe same restricted buffer.

Who cares anyway, to me that would be the perfect camera, too bad it's a collector item, it means it won't go down in price like the other digital Ms.
Although, surprisingly, I've seen bodies without the rest of the original kit being sold on ebay.

Edited February 27, 2019 by andrea-i

[IkarusJohn]

12 hours ago, andrea-i said:

...

I always get confused, I think it could be based on the 262 then, no video, maybe same restricted buffer.

...
 

M(240)-P  It has the 2GB buffer.

As for the price, it did go down.  If you compared the original price to the M-P and the 35 Summilux-M (FLE), there was a premium for the stainless steel finish etc, but it wasn't outrageous. The price fell on release, and the run of 600 took a while to sell, but I believe they did all sell.  The price fell further, and from what I can tell people are either storing them or using them.  The price seems to have fallen to a degree that buying one, keeping the lens and selling the body is feasible.

If you like the 35 Summilux-M (FLE), then the M60 version is probably worth it - it is the best made Leica lens I have used.

[epand56]

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On 2/27/2019 at 1:50 PM, andrea-i said:

I don't understand why people seem to love the film M bodies and then be so perplex about the same thing just digital.
 

I'm not at all perplex, i find it funny. You don't need movie? do not use it. You don't need the screen? do not use it. You don't need focus aid? Do not use it.
I find funny to pay more to have less. The M to me is just an object I use to take pictures, not a toy or a fetish. I just take pictures.
Should I need the movie feature, it's there. I don't need the screen? I do not look at it.
If you like film photography, then switch to a film camera. Pretending to be on film using a digital camera is totally silly, to me.
If you are good enough to take perfect pictures without chimping with your digital camera, then all the rest is just child game. 
This said, I would fight for your right to buy an 8,000 € M60 and pretend to use it as a 1,500 € M4.

[semi-ambivalent]

48 minutes ago, epand56 said:

If you like film photography, then switch to a film camera. Pretending to be on film using a digital camera is totally silly, to me.
If you are good enough to take perfect pictures without chimping with your digital camera, then all the rest is just child game. 
This said, I would fight for your right to buy an 8,000 € M60 and pretend to use it as a 1,500 € M4.

Digital Leicas. Almost miraculous, like any other digital camera. Leica's successful cultivation of its cameras' aura across time, technologies, and relevance. Why then always this subtle undertow of dissatisfaction? The man at the Boston Leica boutique holds a gelatin print. He snaps it between his hands, turns to me and says "What are these?" Go take pictures.

[andrea-i]

51 minutes ago, epand56 said:

I'm not at all perplex, i find it funny. You don't need movie? do not use it. You don't need the screen? do not use it. You don't need focus aid? Do not use it.
I find funny to pay more to have less. The M to me is just an object I use to take pictures, not a toy or a fetish. I just take pictures.
Should I need the movie feature, it's there. I don't need the screen? I do not look at it.
If you like film photography, then switch to a film camera. Pretending to be on film using a digital camera is totally silly, to me.
If you are good enough to take perfect pictures without chimping with your digital camera, then all the rest is just child game. 
This said, I would fight for your right to buy an 8,000 € M60 and pretend to use it as a 1,500 € M4.

Having features available that a user can ignore, sometimes more is better, but with each feature comes a compromise, it's true in industrial design, software design, and pretty much anything in life...I just had a daughter, she's the love of my life, but also most definitely the reason why I won't buy another Leica eheheh. New feature, new compromise ; )

I can't count how many times I bumped exposure compensation or macro on my x-pro, or the times the camera missed the auto focus.
Those are the kinds of missed shots that make me angry at the tool for not being simple enough and trying to do too much.
Having a simple camera that can only take pictures, is not about pretending to shoot film, it's about having a simple tool that does one thing and it does it with excellence.
How did we even get to the point where a camera that just takes a picture is a faux of a film camera?

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, epand56 said:

I'm not at all perplex, i find it funny. You don't need movie? do not use it. You don't need the screen? do not use it. You don't need focus aid? Do not use it.
I find funny to pay more to have less. The M to me is just an object I use to take pictures, not a toy or a fetish. I just take pictures.
Should I need the movie feature, it's there. I don't need the screen? I do not look at it.
If you like film photography, then switch to a film camera. Pretending to be on film using a digital camera is totally silly, to me.
If you are good enough to take perfect pictures without chimping with your digital camera, then all the rest is just child game. 
This said, I would fight for your right to buy an 8,000 € M60 and pretend to use it as a 1,500 € M4.

The M is just an object you use to take pictures? Really.

In a computerised age, you use a camera with manual focus, aperture on the lens barrel, and a removable baseplate?  Sure, it’s a game.

Edited March 1, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[ramarren]

Some of this parley is just silliness, folks. 

In one sense, an M, any M, and any other camera are all the same: they're just tools for me to make photographs with. I happen to like these tools because I like their lenses and, with the digital ones, I like how the engineers have crafted the system to produce good files that I can work with. I'm not in love with the fact that they're Leica's or that they're Ms or not. 

In another sense, the M is special because it works very well—has worked very well—for over sixty years as a fundamental camera design. There's a certain weight lent by that historical fact in the mind of a photographer. Of course, to a photo buyer or any other person simply appreciating photographs, it's completely irrelevant what camera a picture was made with, unless they also happen to be camera enthusiasts. 

I am happy to disregard 90% of the features of my Olympus E-M1 when I choose to use it, but I bought it because it had all those features for when I want to use them. I'm very happy not to have to disregard any feature of my M-D 262 because I never have any particular desire to use any features it doesn't have, and not having those features has made the camera both more ergonomic and more pleasant to make use of. As it does "lack of features" on the M60 and the M10-D as well. 

But all of this palaver really is just a lot of semiphilosophical hot air.  I like to make photographs, and I buy equipment to do that which pleases me. Of my recent camera toy acquisitions, the little Fuji GS645S Wide 60 I picked up last week is making me giggle the most right now. It's like having an M6 with a permanently affixed 35mm f/2 lens on it, and gives me a negative with 3x the area ... It produces image quality ALMOST on par with the M-D, as long as I choose the right film and expose it correctly. 

Life is short. Go make photos.

 

[elmadi]

Hello, I just joined forum and I seek anyone's advice : 

I am tempted to trade my second hand M60 for the new M10 for the reason of weight and convenience.

I love my M60 but it's weight bothers me during my travel plus I miss the LCD screen at times. I have owned my M60 for 2 years now. 
Thank you for any advice.

Regards

[epand56]

On 3/1/2019 at 7:05 PM, IkarusJohn said:

The M is just an object you use to take pictures? Really.

In a computerised age, you use a camera with manual focus, aperture on the lens barrel, and a removable baseplate?  Sure, it’s a game.

I take what Leica gives to me. I'm sure we all would like a more ergonomic way to change the battery and the card. But that's it. Manual focus, aperture and exposure time it's just photography. A screen may be very useful and movie, well, who knows?

[epand56]

On 3/1/2019 at 6:22 PM, andrea-i said:

Having features available that a user can ignore, sometimes more is better, but with each feature comes a compromise, it's true in industrial design, software design, and pretty much anything in life...I just had a daughter, she's the love of my life, but also most definitely the reason why I won't buy another Leica eheheh. New feature, new compromise ; )

I can't count how many times I bumped exposure compensation or macro on my x-pro, or the times the camera missed the auto focus.
Those are the kinds of missed shots that make me angry at the tool for not being simple enough and trying to do too much.
Having a simple camera that can only take pictures, is not about pretending to shoot film, it's about having a simple tool that does one thing and it does it with excellence.
How did we even get to the point where a camera that just takes a picture is a faux of a film camera?

That's okay with me, but again, why pay more to have less? Put a Large black tape on the screen and you're done.

[andrea-i]

19 hours ago, epand56 said:

That's okay with me, but again, why pay more to have less? Put a Large black tape on the screen and you're done.

In the case of a screen-less camera like the M-D, paying more is sadly a consequence of it being super niche, as for the M60 value was brought up by construction materials and one-off machined components for a small production.

As for putting tape on the screen, the best quote I heard so far is from Thorsten Overgaard, he said he finally remembered how nice it was to grab a camera and just feel the leatherette under each finger, rather than having to doge or smear a screen.
Given that I don't use the screen of my M8, I couldn't agree more, the screen is in the way, but that's just me, I'm sure a lot of people review each shot they take, I simply shoot the same way I used to with film, not sure why I should check each shot just because it's digital, I already have the benefit of taking another shot for free if I want a better chance to nail it.
Again, I'm no professional, otherwise hell no I would never want to work without a screen.

Then from a purely technical point of view, I think the M10-D got it right with the wifi connection, checking your phone when you need the screen is the most functional choice that comes without compromise. I will argue it's even better than having the screen on the camera, easier to replace when it breaks, possible to upgrade it over time with a better one.

 

[NigelG]

I enjoyed the difference in using my M-D enough (vs my M240P) to be selling it and downgrading..........to an as new/unregistered M60 🙄

[poli]

1 hour ago, NigelG said:

I enjoyed the difference in using my M-D enough (vs my M240P) to be selling it and downgrading..........to an as new/unregistered M60 🙄

Kind of did the same. However, I sold my 2nd hand m-d to buy a new M-D with 5 year warranty on sale. I am hoping to enjoy it for many years to come.

[andrea-i]

2 hours ago, NigelG said:

I enjoyed the difference in using my M-D enough (vs my M240P) to be selling it and downgrading..........to an as new/unregistered M60 🙄

 

43 minutes ago, poli said:

Kind of did the same. However, I sold my 2nd hand m-d to buy a new M-D with 5 year warranty on sale. I am hoping to enjoy it for many years to come.

Envy sparking off charts for both of you : D
Could anyone who has an M-D and/or an M60 please share the startup time of those cameras? I've heard people with a leica M saying they turn it on and leave it in sleep while shooting because it's too slow to turn it on/off when needed, is that the case with those other cameras as well?

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Look here: Leica M

[poli]

4 minutes ago, andrea-i said:

 

Envy sparking off charts for both of you : D
Could anyone who has an M-D and/or an M60 please share the startup time of those cameras? I've heard people with a leica M saying they turn it on and leave it in sleep while shooting because it's too slow to turn it on/off when needed, is that the case with those other cameras as well?

I will see if I can measure the startup time. But in my experience it is never slow in startup time. Definitely fast enough for my needs and I never missed a picture because it was too slow or something. However, I never use it for sports or anything really speedy. Mainly, travel, familiy, landscape and some streetphotography. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by poli

[NigelG]

I’ll try to measure both tonight - not sure of the accurate methodology for doing so though....

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