The broken dream of the M60

[andrea-i]

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So, every time I dream about getting an M-D eventually, I always end up looking at the M60 as well (attaching here a custom leather version by Arte Di Mano, just to make us all suffer even more), and that's when I stop and wonder: why, Leica.
Why the heck did they make the ultimate, stripped down, minimalist M ever, only to then make it a unicorn, a dream, a product that doesn't really exist (not for the majority of standard human beings at least).

I think both the M-D and the M10-D are incredible cameras, yet, if I was to choose, I'd no doubt pick an M60:
no fake re-cock lever, iso control on back wheel, no little thumb wheel (which, to me is totally useless and I'm happy the M8/9 don't have that), just the bare essentials.
Yet, they did not want this thing to be available as any other M.

I didn't find any M60 topic here, I think this camera deserves to be remembered as the cruelest Leica camera ever made ; )

 

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Edited February 21, 2019 by andrea-i

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[pgk]

3 minutes ago, andrea-i said:

Why the heck did they make the ultimate, stripped down, minimalist M ever, only to then make it a unicorn, a dream, a product that doesn't really exist (not for the majority of standard human beings at least)?

I can only assume that marketing think that there are few absolute minimalists who would buy such a camera so considered that it would only appeal to collectors. It does seem odd that taking the whole concept of absolute ,minimalism in a camera, when minimalism is often quoted as being a Leica attribute, and then pushing it out of reach, is strange.Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure that I want one, but I do think myself that it was an odd decision. Perhaps Leica should revisit the idea as an entry level model.

[andrea-i]

26 minutes ago, pgk said:

I can only assume that marketing think that there are few absolute minimalists who would buy such a camera so considered that it would only appeal to collectors. It does seem odd that taking the whole concept of absolute ,minimalism in a camera, when minimalism is often quoted as being a Leica attribute, and then pushing it out of reach, is strange.Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure that I want one, but I do think myself that it was an odd decision. Perhaps Leica should revisit the idea as an entry level model.

That is exactly my thinking!
They are well known for their well thought, essential design. Yet, they considered that camera beyond what the general public might consider acceptable, sort of a gimmick in essential design.
I wouldn't be surprised if one day, an M11, 12 or 13 will fully embrace that minimalism without shame.

Edited February 21, 2019 by andrea-i

[a.noctilux]

😇

Not so long ago...

and

this interesting thread, here

[andrea-i]

damn, my forum searching abilities clearly suck!

Also interesting, from reading the other posts, and just as I suspected, the M60 only features an ON-OFF switch, no continuous or timed shoot.
This camera really looks like an M from the future, or from an alternate reality : D

Edited February 21, 2019 by andrea-i

[duoenboge]

Imo the M60 was

1. made by  excellent stylists

2. with more freedom regards to the costs.

To create a serial product is a very different issue.

[kentishrev]

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On 2/21/2019 at 11:39 AM, duoenboge said:

Imo the M60 was

1. made by  excellent stylists

2. with more freedom regards to the costs.

To create a serial product is a very different issue.

Very true, yet I’m sure Leica made a profit on the M60. The question then is whether a larger number produced, sold at lower price to reflect the greater spread of set-up costs, could have still sold out. The appeal of the M-D shows it might have worked for the M60.  

Sorry to say imo the M60 and M-D are in a class of their own - they are the true minimalism I was looking for. Smartphone links with the M10-D have diluted the previous perfection. For me, at least.

[andrea-i]

15 minutes ago, kentishrev said:

Very true, yet I’m sure Leica made a profit on the M60. The question then is whether a larger number produced, sold at lower price to reflect the greater spread of set-up costs, could have still sold out. The appeal of the M-D shows it might have worked for the M60.  

Sorry to say imo the M60 and M-D are in a class of their own - they are the true minimalism I was looking for. Smartphone links with the M10-D have diluted the previous perfection. For me, at least.

If they were to make an M-D model with the stripped down controls just like the M60, and possibly with the added option to force monochrome dng straight out of camera, that would be the real replacement of a film camera with the only added benefit of instant digital processing.

[jaapv]

I do not think that a monochrome DNG can be done, other than by using a sensor that produces a monochrome output.

Instant (I suppose you mean in-camera?) processing, apart from the de-mosaicing  etc., cannot yield a raw format.

[andrea-i]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

I do not think that a monochrome DNG can be done, other than by using a sensor that produces a monochrome output.

Instant (I suppose you mean in-camera?) processing, apart from the de-mosaicing  etc., cannot yield a raw format.

Hi Jaap, a monochromatic DNG is just a dng with tones of gray rather than color, any digital camera could produce it if the firmware was programmed to do so.
It would mean that all three values for RGB are the same, thus gray, but I guess many would argue that it's a total waste of data.

This is material for another thread I suppose, but I personally don't care much about the increased detail of the monochrom due to the lack of bayer, I'm just after a digital camera that gives me the same limits of a film camera without extra stuff.

Heck, I'm not even sure why nowadays asking for less is considered a design extravaganza and demands for premium price.

[Exodies]

36 minutes ago, andrea-i said:

Heck, I'm not even sure why nowadays asking for less is considered a design extravaganza and demands for premium price.

That’s easy - not much call for it. Most people are capable of not using features they don’t need and also realise that they can’t predict future requirements perfectly.

[pico]

1 hour ago, andrea-i said:

Hi Jaap, a monochromatic DNG is just a dng with tones of gray rather than color, any digital camera could produce it if the firmware was programmed to do so. It would mean that all three values for RGB are the same, thus gray, but I guess many would argue that it's a total waste of data.

You might be quite unhappy with that. Even B&W films have color sensitivities which render characteristic grey tones (luminescence).

 

[andrea-i]

2 hours ago, Exodies said:

That’s easy - not much call for it. Most people are capable of not using features they don’t need and also realise that they can’t predict future requirements perfectly.

I can't know for sure, but I suspect a camera in the price range of a fuji x-pro2 with stripped funcionality like that of an M60 would sell like hot cake.
 

1 hour ago, pico said:

You might be quite unhappy with that. Even B&W films have color sensitivities which render characteristic grey tones (luminescence).

 

You mean I'd be unhappy with a color photo converted to b&W? that's what we all do with standard digital cameras.
I totally agree that a leica monochrom or b&w film makes me happier though : D

[pico]

2 hours ago, andrea-i said:

You mean I'd be unhappy with a color photo converted to b&W? that's what we all do with standard digital cameras.
I totally agree that a leica monochrom or b&w film makes me happier though : D

Simply de-saturating a color image is unlikely to give the same results as B&W film.

[andrea-i]

14 hours ago, pico said:

Simply de-saturating a color image is unlikely to give the same results as B&W film.

Absolutely, b&w film has artistic elements to it that differentiate it from color film converted to b&w, such as grain and contrast.
When it comes to digital sensors, color vs monochrome, the difference is most likely to be found only in the increased details and iso sensibility.

Hence my desire to simply have a monochromatic dng output in our digital Ms, I personally don't care for the extra resolution of a monochrome sensor, but I love the idea of shooting an image that is black and white only from the start : )

[IkarusJohn]

I agree that the M10-D does not have the perfection of delivery that the M60 has.  I’d be happier if the M10-D came without the focus button on the front, and the thumb wheel and function button, but ... the M60 has that beautiful stainless sreel case, and the stainless Summilux!

The thing is that the M10-D is an M10 with WiFi and compatibility with the EVF. With that functionality, the three buttons I wish weren’t there have a purpose. I can use the camera without the EVF, having the same simplistic function as the M60, but sadly not the form.

[jaapv]

On 2/23/2019 at 1:44 PM, andrea-i said:

Hi Jaap, a monochromatic DNG is just a dng with tones of gray rather than color, any digital camera could produce it if the firmware was programmed to do so.
It would mean that all three values for RGB are the same, thus gray, but I guess many would argue that it's a total waste of data.

This is material for another thread I suppose, but I personally don't care much about the increased detail of the monochrom due to the lack of bayer, I'm just after a digital camera that gives me the same limits of a film camera without extra stuff.

Heck, I'm not even sure why nowadays asking for less is considered a design extravaganza and demands for premium price.

Use the desaturating slider in your postprocessing program, which does exactly that. Not many photographers would be happy with the result. A good B&W conversion is much more.

[andrea-i]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Use the desaturating slider in your postprocessing program, which does exactly that. Not many photographers would be happy with the result. A good B&W conversion is much more.

I think there's some confusion here Jaap, why do you think a monchrom's dng or scanned b&w film is more desirable than a desaturated color image?
From a technical stand point, desaturated color is indeed what you get with a leica monochom's dng or b&w film.
A leica monochrom file is desirable because it contains lots of detail, as we know this is because there's no bayer filters on each cell of the sensor, so each cell is used to capture light, no interpolation between the colored cells means each cell is used, so more resolution and more light sensitivity because no color was filtered out.

So, does a color file converted to b&w in PP have advantages to a pure monochrome file? Yes, because light was filtered and split, our post processing softwares allow us to selectively manipulate each color channel even though the final image is displayed in b&w. That means added flexibility and fine tuning.

Then, is there a difference between a leica monochrom's file and a file coming from a color sensor where all pixels have been desaturated? 
Technically, no, those two files are equal.

So, in reality, shooting color and then converting to b&w or shooting straight b&w with a monochromatic sensor, both have advantages one over the other.
In one case you gain post processing flexibility over each single tone, while in the other you gain detail and iso.

So, what if I don't care about changing each color channel during black and white post processing? After all, no-one shooting a leica monochrom or b&w film has that option.
And what if I don't care about increased detail and iso? Those who shoot with an M9, M8 or low iso film do cope with some of those limits anyway, right?

If you've been patient enough to read all of the above, then my thinking *might* make a bit more sense now:
I'd be perfectly happy if my digital leica would let me shoot black and white dng in camera because I would not mind loosing the post processing flexibility to adjust each tone separately, and I would not care about the increased detail and iso of a leica monochrom becuase I don't have a leica monochrom to begin with : )

EDIT: my final point being, in camera b&w would be a very nice option to have on all Ms, and it would turn any M-D into an awesome monochrome, especially because the M-D already does pack more resolution and iso than an M9M. But I guess it doesn't make commercial sense for leica...then again, for the price we pay an M-D...

Edited February 25, 2019 by andrea-i

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[a.noctilux]

Concerning b&w, I don't argue that converting from color dng file can be satisfying.

 

In PP flexibility may be more comfortable and power of computer can be adapted to the job.

But, obtaining b&w dng file from the camera can't be done technically because of demosaic software in the camera that must have

two different paths for the camera to work on.

That said, b&w jpeg files from Leica M can be good since M8 and can be choosen in different "contrast/saturation" on most M.

[andrea-i]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Concerning b&w, I don't argue that converting from color dng file can be satisfying.

 

In PP flexibility may be more comfortable and power of computer can be adapted to the job.

But, obtaining b&w dng file from the camera can't be done technically because of demosaic software in the camera that must have

two different paths for the camera to work on.

That said, b&w jpeg files from Leica M can be good since M8 and can be choosen in different "contrast/saturation" on most M.

My bad, I thought the demosaic process was handled in camera and the raw data stored as final RGB per pixel.
Then it really boils down to the processing power of the camera I guess, same way these cameras process jpeg, I suspect they could store a monochrome dng not meant to go through the demosaic process once imported in a PP app?