M10-D: is “D” for dud dot diode?

[M9reno]

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14 minutes ago, lucerne said:

QC can’t catch such events.  Ask any engineer. 

That is where QC leaves off and CS comes in, not a transition optimally handled in the boutique environment, as I have seen.

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[ramarren]

27 minutes ago, M9reno said:

But no member or reader of this forum is a mindless automaton. They can judge for themselves and decide accordingly.  I doubt that any newcomer would find much in this thread to dissuade them decisively from becoming a new user. 

I disagree. "I heard the M has difficulties with SD cards", "Leica? Aren't they unreliable?", "I heard their service sucks rocks", and "Nice camera but the sensor is behind the times", amongst other memes that I hear wailed about on this forum, are some of the most frequent comments I get from prospective new users who skimmed a few threads here and decided to look elsewhere rather than spend their money on Leica equipment. It's not because they are "mindless automatons": It's because that was their first impression reading a bunch of people's complaints and they chose not to look deeper. These sorts of comments set their expectations negatively. First impressions count.

I communicate my dissatisfaction to the company, when I have dissatisfactions. And I try to post objective comments only, with constructive criticism—not complaints—on enthusiast forums. There's a difference between saying "this doesn't work" vs saying "If only this thing that I most wanted would actually work, when will they get a clue?",  and "my new camera showed up with a defective viewfinder indicator, i had to exchange it for another" vs "you would think that at the price this camera would be perfect, but now I'm so disappointed I decided not to keep it at all." The difference tells in the mind of a person new to the brand. 

[pgk]

Boutique experiences are for me a rare thing. I have visited Leica's London boutiques simply to have a look at one or two items rather than to buy and the experience was pleasant enough but I never got the impression of deep rooted knowledge, which is becoming relatively rare these days. By contrast I was in my local camera shop yesterday and had a chat with someone who has really retired but still works a day or so a week, and we got talking about photography rather than cameras, but including relevant gear, photographers, books, etc.. What is so nice is to find someone who understands your part of the conversation, as you understand theirs. We gel on photography - a real exchange of relevant, interesting and useful information. Experience cannot be underestimated in my opinion. If I ask myself who I would rather deal with and buy from the answer is easy, but I fear that it is not the way that 'product' sells profitably. High end 'product' such as Leica must be a difficult pitch because it has those of us using it who see it as a tool we enjoy using, but at the same time there are obviously many who buy because of name/kudos/status.

[pgk]

2 minutes ago, ramarren said:

These sorts of comments set their expectations negatively. First impressions count.

Whilst you are correct I think that if you are searching the web for negative comments about anything that you intend to buy then you will find a plethora of them! Its tricky because, with Leica, they do trade on their heritage which in mechanical camera days was about reliability and long term investment. I think that the reality of aspiration is actuay quite different today but buyers still want to think that their purchase will have those old fashioned attributes even in a modern, digital world.

[ramarren]

Just now, pgk said:

Boutique experiences are for me a rare thing. I have visited Leica's London boutiques simply to have a look at one or two items rather than to buy and the experience was pleasant enough but I never got the impression of deep rooted knowledge, which is becoming relatively rare these days. By contrast I was in my local camera shop yesterday and had a chat with someone who has really retired but still works a day or so a week, and we got talking about photography rather than cameras, but including relevant gear, photographers, books, etc.. What is so nice is to find someone who understands your part of the conversation, as you understand theirs. We gel on photography - a real exchange of relevant, interesting and useful information. Experience cannot be underestimated in my opinion. If I ask myself who I would rather deal with and buy from the answer is easy, but I fear that it is not the way that 'product' sells profitably. High end 'product' such as Leica must be a difficult pitch because it has those of us using it who see it as a tool we enjoy using, but at the same time there are obviously many who buy because of name/kudos/status.

(bolded) There are none of these left within a 50 mile radius of my home where such knowledgable store personnel exist.

And I haven't found the Leica Store personnel to be uninformed either. Going there is a sixty mile run up to SF for me, and all the folks I've talked to there were knowledgable about the sorts of things I expect store personnel to be knowledgeable about. Some of them are actually photographers too ...

[M9reno]

Just now, ramarren said:

And I haven't found the Leica Store personnel to be uninformed either. Going there is a sixty mile run up to SF for me, and all the folks I've talked to there were knowledgable about the sorts of things I expect store personnel to be knowledgeable about. Some of them are actually photographers too ...

Ah - but they had no clue about the order numbers of pre-R8 focusing screens!😂

[ramarren]

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2 minutes ago, pgk said:

Whilst you are correct I think that if you are searching the web for negative comments about anything that you intend to buy then you will find a plethora of them! Its tricky because, with Leica, they do trade on their heritage which in mechanical camera days was about reliability and long term investment. I think that the reality of aspiration is actuay quite different today but buyers still want to think that their purchase will have those old fashioned attributes even in a modern, digital world.

I don't go searching for "negative comments". I go to brand enthusiast forums to see what the buzz is about a new product of that brand. When the buzz is mostly negative and nonsense, it dampens my interest in the product. I might decide that the buzz is unwarranted, but only if I'm otherwise really interested in the product and take the time to research it further. 

[ramarren]

1 minute ago, M9reno said:

Ah - but they had no clue about the order numbers of pre-R8 focusing screens!😂

I didn't ask them, so I have no idea whether they did or not. I don't get to SF terribly often... I was searching the web for that information. Luckily, some kind souls here knew the numbers... 

Edited February 20, 2019 by ramarren

[pgk]

4 minutes ago, ramarren said:

And I haven't found the Leica Store personnel to be uninformed either. Going there is a sixty mile run up to SF for me, and all the folks I've talked to there were knowledgable about the sorts of things I expect store personnel to be knowledgeable about. Some of them are actually photographers too ...

Deep rooted knowledge is generally held because the person with it is genuinely interested in the subject. I would like to think that people selling cameras are into photography but this isn't actually always the case .....

[M9reno]

7 minutes ago, ramarren said:

I don't go searching for "negative comments". I go to brand enthusiast forums to see what the buzz is about a new product of that brand. When the buzz is mostly negative and nonsense, it dampens my interest in the product. I might decide that the buzz is unwarranted, but only if I'm otherwise really interested in the product and take the time to research it further. 

The buzz is good about the M10-D!  Just for the sake of balance, let’s even this out with some Steve Huff:

In all seriousness, we all draw the line at different places, and choose and re-assess our choices.  It’s just one bad experience related here.

Edited February 20, 2019 by M9reno

[ramarren]

8 minutes ago, pgk said:

Deep rooted knowledge is generally held because the person with it is genuinely interested in the subject. I would like to think that people selling cameras are into photography but this isn't actually always the case .....

I agree ... although what I find in most sales situations nowadays is that the people willing to hold such jobs in this area are too young to have built up much real experience as yet, even if they are interested and enthusiastic. I often find myself speaking with a wonderful, enthusiastic-about-photography young person who doesn't yet understand the essentials but can tell me all the three dozen features of a new camera in extraordinary detail. I try to help them understand why these features might or might not actually be interesting if they understood the basics of what they were doing... 

Perhaps this is my old man cynicism emerging.

[evikne]

15 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Just for the sake of balance, let’s even this out with some Steve Huff:

What a beauty! 😍

[willeica]

19 minutes ago, pgk said:

Boutique experiences are for me a rare thing. I have visited Leica's London boutiques simply to have a look at one or two items rather than to buy and the experience was pleasant enough but I never got the impression of deep rooted knowledge, which is becoming relatively rare these days. By contrast I was in my local camera shop yesterday and had a chat with someone who has really retired but still works a day or so a week, and we got talking about photography rather than cameras, but including relevant gear, photographers, books, etc.. What is so nice is to find someone who understands your part of the conversation, as you understand theirs. We gel on photography - a real exchange of relevant, interesting and useful information. Experience cannot be underestimated in my opinion. If I ask myself who I would rather deal with and buy from the answer is easy, but I fear that it is not the way that 'product' sells profitably. High end 'product' such as Leica must be a difficult pitch because it has those of us using it who see it as a tool we enjoy using, but at the same time there are obviously many who buy because of name/kudos/status.

I am with you all the way on this, Paul. But, then, you won't be surprised at this. I use Leica digital cameras, but I find 90% of the discussion on them to be quite boring. I would discuss photography all day, preferably without any references to brands. I am also interested in collecting and using vintage cameras which are mainly Leicas, but not all.  For example, I shot a roll with a 100 year old Kodak folder last week. That might begin to explain why the Leica boutique experience is not for me; indeed the whole boutique side of Leica is a bit of a 'turn off' for me, and I know for many others, as it takes the focus (pardon the pun) from the photography side of things onto 'fashion'. I too see the modern Leicas simply as tools and not really interesting per se. I have not bought an M10-D, despite the fact that I like the 'vintage experience', as I already have an M10 and both cameras can be used the same way to produce the same results. I would suggest that anyone seeking the 'vintage experience' might try an M3, 2 or 4 some time.

William

[lucerne]

1 hour ago, M9reno said:

That is where QC leaves off and CS comes in, not a transition optimally handled in the boutique environment, as I have seen.

I agree.  And my experience at the same boutique as you have used, confirms that.

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by lucerne

[pedaes]

If I read M9reno (the OP) correctly, I think he would today either have a replacement camera, or be waiting for one, if the matter had been handled with a degree of customer focus. There  is clearly a 'training need' in the Store, and as is often the case it is not the problem but how it is dealt with that affects attitudes. So many times we read that the wronged just want simple sincere apologies and the issue sorted, and the best organisations leave customer telling a positive tale of their experience with little mention of the original problem.

Edited February 20, 2019 by pedaes

[vhfreund]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb M9reno:

The buzz is good about the M10-D!  Just for the sake of balance, let’s even this out with some Steve Huff:

In all seriousness, we all draw the line at different places, and choose and re-assess our choices.  It’s just one bad experience related here.

That is all rubbish ! If you want the shooting experience of film go and shoot film. There are no obstacles! I love my Leicas, but that sh... ain´real.

Cheers Theodor

BTW If I want the original film experience I use my M-A

[pico]

38 minutes ago, willeica said:

I would suggest that anyone seeking the 'vintage experience' might try an M3, 2 or 4 some time.

Let's span the gap and add the 0 Series to that.

[evikne]

I am too young and/or lazy to start with analog photography. But a Leica M10-D probably is the nearest I come. 😀

Edited February 20, 2019 by evikne

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[scott kirkpatrick]

2 hours ago, M9reno said:

The central spot appeared permanently lit between the digits in A mode, as well as when aiming the camera towards very bright light in manual mode. It would flicker and change brightness in the latter case, and a digit segment appeared on its top right.  

I see.  (and obviously I can't reproduce this.)  It sounds like something got knocked out of position.  It's odd enough that I can see why Leica would want to have a technician run the test sequence on controls and displays to see if it could be repaired in the UK.  But if it were mine, I would just request a replacement, and pull whatever rank you can muster to get it quickly.

[scott kirkpatrick]

If I want the real film experience I pull out an M2 or a Hassy SWC.  But not often, and even the SWC now has a digital back on it.  The M2 got sent off with each kid to a summer "photos using film" course.  It freaked out one teacher since they weren't planning to teach about setting exposure.  But the kid already knew that.