Jeff S Posted January 20, 2019 Share #21 Posted January 20, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 4 hours ago, Chaemono said: It’s a well known secret that photographers who use an M date more. So the infidelity/divorce rate for M owners is higher? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 20, 2019 Posted January 20, 2019 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here Where the M10 excels .... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted January 20, 2019 Share #22 Posted January 20, 2019 4 hours ago, Chaemono said: It’s a well known secret that photographers who use an M date more. Date more what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 20, 2019 Share #23 Posted January 20, 2019 12 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said: If the M is uniquely good at showing you the world as it is through a viewfinder with an angle of view of a 32mm lens, with your image framed in a box, and so forcing you to make a more interesting composition............ How does that work when you're using lenses of 35mm or wider? 😉 Frankly that concept has never been a big factor for me (though it clearly is for others) and it has been combined with irritation at inaccurate framing from the mechanical framelines. You slightly mis-read my point (or perhaps I just wasn't clear). I wasn't talking about "better composition," I was talking about putting the box around more compelling subject matter. Composition is highly over-rated, as one can see from some of the most compelling Leica pictures made, which often have sloppy framing, crud in the corners, tilted horizons, half-people and other imperfections (including cr*p image quality). Nevertheless, with the test of time, they will still be in the photographic archive of mankind 100 years from now, while billions of perfect-composed (and otherwise technically perfect) pictures of nothing much in particular will have sunk back into the primaeval ooze. They do very often have excellent composition where it counts - in the movement and body-language and gestures and relationships between objects within the frame. BTW - some "contact sheets" and other miscellany are included in these links, to show how the "picture" developed, the original complete framing, and/or its influence in the world. http://100photos.time.com/photos/kiss-v-j-day-times-square-alfred-eisenstaedt http://100photos.time.com/photos/nick-ut-terror-war http://100photos.time.com/photos/eddie-adams-saigon-execution http://100photos.time.com/photos/susan-meiselas-molotov-man Now, one can argue that that is an "elitist selection" by the editors at TIME. So from other end of the spectrum.... 18 months ago I started to exhibit my pictures at a co-op gallery. Having no clear idea what would sell, I put together an eclectic group of oh-so-carefully-composed landscapes and wildlife shots, and also sloppily composed "Leica moment" pictures. To keep it short, the second group out-sell the first by 5:1 or more. Not surprisingly, "the people" are far more interested in - interesting things seen, rather than technical or compositional perfection. "The people" in this case being everyone from well-off suburbanites to cash-strapped millennial waitresses (I get to know my audience personally). And it is not just me - I see other photographers come in, with beautiful but content-free "architectural sunsets" and landscapes or other pretty things. And leave after 6-9 months, having sold nothing. Even for the painters - it is not how well it is painted, but what was painted. We had a "classically-trained" painter exhibit for a while (it said so right in her bio) - no sales, left after 6 months. One of my heavier sellers - made with an M8 (so much for megapixels) and its "90mm" frame - notoriously one of the worst for accuracy at long distances. The crop I saw was about 1cm inside this image all around - did not matter. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Nothing, but nothing, improved my photography, my career, and my life so much as letting loose of control of the picture (in many ways, including wasting time on control-freak composition) by going to viewfinder cameras 20 years ago. First a Bessa-L w/15mm lens and external viewfinder. Then an M4-2. "F*ck the edges." 14 4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Nothing, but nothing, improved my photography, my career, and my life so much as letting loose of control of the picture (in many ways, including wasting time on control-freak composition) by going to viewfinder cameras 20 years ago. First a Bessa-L w/15mm lens and external viewfinder. Then an M4-2. "F*ck the edges." ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/293445-where-the-m10-excels/?do=findComment&comment=3668581'>More sharing options...
pico Posted January 20, 2019 Share #24 Posted January 20, 2019 (edited) 52 minutes ago, adan said: I put together an eclectic group of oh-so-carefully-composed landscapes and wildlife shots, ... Nothing, but nothing, improved my photography, my career, and my life so much as letting loose of control of the picture I have a half-baked theory that states that an object or an image of the same has a significant appeal if it shows a history, a previous tense, a fleeting reality that bounces back to us in something like a visual echo chamber to reflect upon. I can elaborate after I find some sleep. Thank you for your outstanding and disturbing photo. I cannot understand why a photo editor did not jump upon it right away. It is Pulitzer material if you were properly situated at the time. My respect ...always Edited January 20, 2019 by pico Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 20, 2019 Share #25 Posted January 20, 2019 I think Andy’s photo is wonderful because of the content and composition, intended or not, including the edges, which give energy and form, and lead the eye to the central figure. Turn the pic upside down and one can better see the shapes and spacing, almost like the spirals of a snail, leading to the recumbent figure. Edge awareness doesn’t mean perfectly boring symmetry. Paul Strand, one of my favorite photographers, was acutely aware of the edges in addition to the whole. He intentionally included unbalanced elements, non-parallel lines, etc. Content and emotion was not sacrificed; rather the whole was enhanced. Andre Kertesz, another favorite (and sometimes Leica user), did an exceptional job of merging wonderful content and whole frame composition. HCB did the same. Walker Evans wasn’t shy about cropping after the fact to achieve his desired framing. His contact sheets, like all photographers, contain a lot of pics that never quite made the cut. That’s why a picture that brings it all together... light, form, content, emotion...can be so magical - including the edges. A great photo, or painting, doesn’t require perfection (or necessarily people). Some times it’s the slight imperfections or asymmetry ...often intentional... that add interest, even if the viewer doesn’t know why. For me, details matter, even using a Leica. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrostl Posted January 21, 2019 Share #26 Posted January 21, 2019 For me, the M10 is uniquely good at making me want to take photographs. Holy mackerel though, adan's post has me doing a standing ovation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert blu Posted January 21, 2019 Share #27 Posted January 21, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Simplicity... robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert blu Posted January 21, 2019 Share #28 Posted January 21, 2019 10 hours ago, Jeff S said: I think Andy’s photo is wonderful because of the content and composition, intended or not, including the edges, which give energy and form, and lead the eye to the central figure. Turn the pic upside down and one can better see the shapes and spacing, almost like the spirals of a snail, leading to the recumbent figure. Edge awareness doesn’t mean perfectly boring symmetry. Paul Strand, one of my favorite photographers, was acutely aware of the edges in addition to the whole. He intentionally included unbalanced elements, non-parallel lines, etc. Content and emotion was not sacrificed; rather the whole was enhanced. Andre Kertesz, another favorite (and sometimes Leica user), did an exceptional job of merging wonderful content and whole frame composition. HCB did the same. Walker Evans wasn’t shy about cropping after the fact to achieve his desired framing. His contact sheets, like all photographers, contain a lot of pics that never quite made the cut. That’s why a picture that brings it all together... light, form, content, emotion...can be so magical - including the edges. A great photo, or painting, doesn’t require perfection (or necessarily people). Some times it’s the slight imperfections or asymmetry ...often intentional... that add interest, even if the viewer doesn’t know why. For me, details matter, even using a Leica. Jeff Very well said, I fully agree. robert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted January 21, 2019 Share #29 Posted January 21, 2019 13 hours ago, adan said: Nothing, but nothing, improved my photography, my career, and my life so much as letting loose of control of the picture (in many ways, including wasting time on control-freak composition) by going to viewfinder cameras 20 years ago. I guess that's one of the main reasons why I love Leica too. To me, photography is primarily about capturing the right moment, and that's where Leica really excels. Composition is always secondary for me. I mainly photograph people though. It's probably different for landscape photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted January 21, 2019 Share #30 Posted January 21, 2019 I've said this before. Leica M sensors are mediocre at best. They're lacking in dynamic range, ISO, and detail. I shoot an M3 for the rangefinder experience which I thoroughly enjoy. I have thought about the M10-P but when tests like this (below) reveal the true nature of Leica sensor technology I'm glad I've stuck with film (for now). If I go to digital I'll get an adaptor for my lenses. I wish Leica would break down for the sake of their customers and strike an arrangement with Sony to produce a micro lens sensor for them. It's not right. https://leicarumors.com/2019/01/20/mega-shootout-best-of-the-best-sony-leica-and-phase-one-comparison.aspx/?fbclid=IwAR3UUWZ0-yxV7EAPbcq1C-HdCd7I8_4-unyumkIFHExYW2ov6SQvcOosmx4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted January 21, 2019 Share #31 Posted January 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Talleyrand said: I've said this before. Leica M sensors are mediocre at best. I think that people who buy Leica M simply to have "the best", they have misunderstood a lot … 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 21, 2019 Share #32 Posted January 21, 2019 vor 8 Minuten schrieb evikne: I think that people who buy Leica M simply to have "the best", they have misunderstood a lot … But even if not the best sensor compared to Middle Format PhaseOne the M10 sensor is excellent. The main point for me: When I had the Canon 5D Mk III I was never very satisfied. After switsching to Mk IV I got what I needed. If there is ever a Mk V or maybe EOS R Mk II I would have no reason to switch. Exactly as with the M10. The sensor might not be the very top but it is so good that I am personally fully satisfied with its performance. Compared to Canon I even prefer the M10 any time. So why should I start to compare to Sony or PhaseOne. That last one or two percent do not change anything in my pictures. On the contrary: The Leica look is so splendid and unique. Furthermore I imagine that there will be lots of question here about the way they measured in that test. First of all they took the values that are printed on the wheels a granted. Here my doubts begin . . . I went off these comparisons. Still I would love reading that Leica is the best. But for my work they are the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
evikne Posted January 21, 2019 Share #33 Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Yes. Of course we should expect a good sensor. But Leica M stands for so much more than “just” ISO, dynamic range etc. Edited January 21, 2019 by evikne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 21, 2019 Share #34 Posted January 21, 2019 vor 2 Stunden schrieb Alex U.: ...the M10 sensor is excellent....The sensor might not be the very top but it is so good that I am personally fully satisfied with its performance. +1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted January 21, 2019 Share #35 Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, evikne said: Yes. Of course we should expect a good sensor. But Leica M stands for so much more than “just” ISO, dynamic range etc. Indeed. I think it’s important to consider that one of those qualities is reliability. Leica got burned pretty bad, both financially and in reputation, with the M9 sensor corrosion issues. I expect sourcing a quality, reliable sensor is high on their list vs. being on the bleeding edge of sensor development. Also, it’s important to note that the Sony A7r3 reviewed came out 10 months after the M10, and being a much larger manufacturer and one of the heavyweights in sensor manufacturing, Sony is going to be ahead of the curve with their sensors anyway. Likewise, Sony is on about a two-year release date schedule for the A7r series, so of course their sensors are going to be ahead of the M series cameras, which are on more of a 3-4 year cycle. Not to mention that comparing medium format cameras that literally costs tens of thousands more to a full frame rangefinder seems a pointless exercise. The fact that you have to pixel peep to the extent they did in that review in order to see the differences speaks volumes about how little this matters in actual use. Yes, the top end Phase One is better than the older model, which is better than the Sony, which is better than the Leica. And the M11 sensor will be better than the M10, which is better than the M9. Yet, all produce wonderful photography with a capable operator. The M cameras just do so with less weight, bulk, and effort, as well as a much better user experience. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for in a camera and how much you are willing to pay for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD8x10 Posted January 22, 2019 Share #36 Posted January 22, 2019 What I like about the M (and this is not specific to the M10), is the abstraction of using a rangefinder vs. a mirrorless or SLR type camera. I like to visualize a picture, then use the rangefinder to focus and maybe adjust the framing of the image a bit. I come from using view cameras, where you sort of have to set things up in your mind before setting the camera up for the picture. Somehow, having everything in focus in the M rangefinder (vs. more out of focus with SLR) is helpful to me, even if I want to produce shallow focus. For this reason, I also really like the Hasselblad SWC in film. I also like the relatively small size and simplicity. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 22, 2019 Share #37 Posted January 22, 2019 On 1/21/2019 at 5:04 AM, adan said: Composition is highly over-rated, as one can see from some of the most compelling Leica pictures made, which often have sloppy framing, crud in the corners, tilted horizons, half-people and other imperfections (including cr*p image quality). Nevertheless, with the test of time, they will still be in the photographic archive of mankind 100 years from now, while you reminded me of a quote by photographer Wing Shya: "Things are only mistakes if you think they are." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert blu Posted January 22, 2019 Share #38 Posted January 22, 2019 9 hours ago, hemlock said: you reminded me of a quote by photographer Wing Shya: "Things are only mistakes if you think they are." I didn't know Wing Shya and his work but I like this quote! robert PS: interesting works on his site , videos included Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sucherblick Posted January 22, 2019 Share #39 Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) The M10 is a convertible car! It is most fun to drive but has all the limitations other cars have not. It is not a racing car (Nikon/Canon), it is not a SUV (Sony) and it it is not a family wagon (Fujifilm). Whenever you have really work to do - choose one of the other cameras. But if you want to have fun and a real challenge to take photos like Cartier-Bresson - there is no other choice than to use Leica M camera. You will use a tool with 100 years of history in it a n d you feel it whenever you take a Leica into your hands. It is the same philosophy as a Porsche 911 or a Rolex Submariner: A living legacy in your possession... Edited January 22, 2019 by Sucherblick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 22, 2019 Share #40 Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Sucherblick said: The M10 is a convertible car! But if you want to have fun and a real challenge to take photos like Cartier-Bresson - there is no other choice than to use Leica M camera. Who pays you to post such nonsense? Edited January 22, 2019 by pico Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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