WATE - now, not at all or later?

[Baxter]

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This lens appeals for several reasons - however there are several drawbacks, not least the cost and need for Milich adaptor/Leica 49mm to control cyan drift.

It seems to have received positive reviews and has its afficionados. Simplicity/ versatility, performance and clutter reduction in bag I see as positives.

 

Having read Guy's 'In the bag' thread, I was very surprised at the low incidence in which it appeared in people's bags and was wondering reasons for this.

 

I have the opportunity to look at one tomorrow (18 July) and due to the apparent current supply shortage would be very tempted to purchase it along with Frankenfinder.

 

The latter option of delaying the purchase would be longer than short-term and is in reference to perceived design drawbacks and possibility that an updated model would alleviate them.

 

Currently have 28mm and 50mm Zeiss lenses. Am worried that such a wide lens will frequently cause SBR/contrast issues beyond sensor dynamic range - ND grads would bulk out bag too much and not terribly keen on having to use HDR techniques. Happy to be advised that these are not necessary, but would like to see images proving this is the case!!

 

Thanks for your thoughts and advice.

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[marknorton]

The WATE as delivered from Leica has two drawbacks, the klutsy filter arrangement and the lack of coupling to the camera requiring manual selection of focal length. The first we solved with the filter adapter but you do need to select the focal length on the camera as well as the lens as well as the finder when you use it and I've fallen foul of not doing all three more than once.

 

You also need to do the crop-factor adjustment for the setting on the finder so that selecting 21 on the lens means you select 21 on the lens menu but 28 on the finder, not 21, because Leica could not be bothered to label the finder for digital use, only for the tiny number of WATE users who will use it on film.

 

It's a great lens though and for travel, I either use it with a MATE and a 75 or 90 or, if I need speed, a 28/2, 50/1.4 and a 75 or 90.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Baxter there pretty hard to find and are backlogged also but many have them on order with there vouchers and such but i will say it really is a wonderful lens and if you have a chance to grab one it will not disappoint you. There are a bunch of threads on this around and may want to search around a little about it and some images from it. My zenfolio link below will lead you to NY and Germany images in which this was a big part of both trips and i really loved having it along . It does save space , is sharp and has wonderful leica look to it. Plus it is very handy.

[Baxter]

Thanks Mark and Guy

 

I had searched and read about the lens before making my post which I tried to keep brief, so neglected the fiddling with Menus and different Numbers on finder which I expect become tiresome niggles when trying to concentrate on making pictures.

 

I did see some of your German WATE images Guy - thanks for the link. The conditions I were considering were landscape images to record foreground and sky detail from a wide-angle perspective at either end of the day. Typically I use 3-6 stops of ND grad with my LF camera and transparency film. The Leica isn't intended to replace the 5x4, but can foresee wanting to use it in this manner.

[marknorton]

Baxter, the spirit level in the Frankenfinder is very useful in helping to avoid unwanted converging verticals in architecture and landscape and the compactness of the M8 is a big plus when reaching your vantage point.

[lars_bergquist]

I tried out the WATE and the Frankenfinder, and my immediate reaction was an emphatic NO!

 

The whole combo is too fiddly, and the risk is that you will misfiddle in the heat of battle. Did you set the lens to the same focal length as the camera? The finder to the same focal length as the lens? And as for the finder – well, I find it unacceptable, with its extreme barrel distorsion. The bubble level is useless, too 'nervous' and slow for handheld shooting and too imprecise for tripod work. (The correct drill is to select an eye level spot in the middle of the subject, put that in the exact center of the finder field, and mind the horizon.) Only someone who has defined his useability criteria around a DSLR can accept this Leica offering.

 

Why the devil can't Leica get their superwide act in shape? First they discontinued the bright level finders, replacing them with the fuzzy and imprecise multifinder, and now this!

 

The strong points of Leica cameras, first the LTM and then the M models, have always been quick and decisive action, and compact gear. The WATE combo is an aberration. My own stopgap solution is the CV 15, now with Milich adapters front and rear. They work like a charm. They work the Leica way. I won't buy the WATE just because the engraving says 'Leica'.

 

Mr. Lee, I'm waiting. Who'll be first, you or Kobayashi-San?

 

The old man from the Age of Rangefinder Photography

[marknorton]

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Well, yes, I do define my usability criteria around my D2x. When I put my 10.5mm or 12-24mm lens on the front, that's all I have to do; what I see is what I get. The exposure, framing, focussing and AWB are as close to perfect as I need them to be and I can concentrate on the image making. The only downside is the size of the package.

 

M8 usability takes a big step backwards when you have to start using an external finder - one to meter and focus, the other to frame, and thats when you make mistakes in the "heat of battle", as you put it.

 

Within those constraints, the WATE and FF are interesting and effective offerings. The current supply shortage of both the lens and the finder suggests not everyone agrees with you.

[ho_co]

Lars--

I'm still waiting for my WATE & Frankenfounderlater, so I may be premature in this judgment, but here goes:

 

Like you, I liked the older, bright, Leica-made individual finders. But they were really fiddly--changing finders when you changed lenses, remembering which color leather case the 21 finder was in as compared to the 24 or 28, being careful not to smudge either the ocular or the front lens with my fingertips. (I couldn't use the Minolta-made multifinder because I can't get my eye close enough to it with my glasses--despite its having what the advertising copy claimed was 'high eyepoint design.' )

 

At the very least, we've now got a single finder for three focal lengths (or six focal lengths if you sometimes shoot film). So what if the finder is distorted? It's not as if we're looking through the lens. (Do I hear SLR training speaking here? )

 

This new finder is big, but if I can see through it, it seems to me to be quite an improvement over the fiddly bits of the past.

 

Baxter--

You say you were surprised at how seldom the WATE turned up in the "In the Bag" thread. My reaction was just the opposite, being amazed at how many people already have this more-or-less unavailable lens! I kept wanting to call the supplier and ask why those folks have it and I don't.

 

--HC, the curmudgeon remembering the Leica waist-level finder--boy, they don't make 'em like that any more

[wlaidlaw]

I don't think setting the M8 to the appropriate correction is a problem as you get a reminder every time you switch one (I have my Biogon 21 coded as a WATE). I think the Frankenfinder is horrible. If I ever get a WATE, I think I would either get the older little 21/24/28 finder or more probably manage with a fixed 24mm finder and just estimate for the other focal lengths. I would try first with no external VF at all to see if I could live without. I am managing alright with my 16mm semi fish-eye with no finder other than the usual VF. I just use it right-eyed and keep my left eye open. I hate switching my eye backwards and forwards between 2 finders. You lose all the immediacy of using the M8 or any other camera that you have to do that, other than older LTM Leicas, where they are bang next door to each other. I only put with it for the 21mm Biogon on my G2 because with the auto-focus, you did not have to use the main VF.

 

Wilson

[carstenw]

Wilson, I used to think the same about the Frankenfinder, but when I went to look at the 21-24-28mm finder, it gave a small picture and was incredibly soft in the corners, so I decided against it. The Frankenfinder is fiddly if you want to use it fully, but just like with the camera, if you choose the middle focal length and the middle distance, you can leave it the way it is and get reasonably accurate pictures anyway. Alternatively, you can use it like a CV15 with no finder, and just estimate. The Frankenfinder also, in spite of its barrel distortion, has the most accurate framing experience on the M8. The world curves with the finder, so you can really line up verticals and horizontals accurately; you just need to get used to it.

[digibob]

Hi Baxter,All the other points are pertinent.I'm really enjoyimng this lens.

Drawback for me is the vignetting in low light situations.Which could be down to me!

Red or dark blue green mainly in the bottom R/L corners as per this example where i have introduced some LightRoom vignetting to reduce the red in bottom corners + some other tweaks.

Any suggestions to reduce this -much appreciated.

The frankenfinder has its charm and is bright,when i use it;preffering the lcd for feedback,most times.The level should have a viscous fluid to make it really useful.

Changing FL is just one of those 'things"

All the best rob

[tom0511]

I am surprized:

Is it easier to use a WA-zoom on DSLR than using the WATE with an external finder? yes

 

But is it easier to change a WA-prime, change a fixed WA-viewfinder, guess the distance (in case of the 15mm options from ZEiSS and CV), handcode the lens, compared to the WATE with a Frankenfinder?

 

Maybe Leica has discontinued to sell "prime"-WA-finders, but you can get them used and you can get them from Zeiss or CV if you perfer them.

 

Personally I have ordered the WATE - dont know yet if I will use it with the Frankenfinder, or a small Ricoh 21-28mm finder or maybe get a Zeiss finder.

 

IMO the WATE makes a lot of sense:

-you get rangerfinder-coupled lens

-you get a coded lens and dont have to worry about vignetting and cyan stuff

-you have different options for the external viewfinder from all brands

-the price for me is ok, since you get a lens which is nearly as (or as?) good as 3 primes

 

BUT: be carefull, I dont have it yet so my opinion might change when I have used the lens

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WATE @16mm.

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[jrc]

I just skip the finder altogether. And most of the time, the focus. If the top edge of the camera is parallel to the world (horizon, a horizontal line in a building, etc.) you can make the final fix in PS. I guess it'd be different if you were shooting landscape or architecture and wanted to get as close as possible while keeping both corners of a building, with everything razor-sharp...but then maybe you could get take two shots, and (I hate to use the c-word) chimp? Not like the building will leave between shots...

 

JC

[delander †]

Hi Baxter,

 

I've had the WATE with the Frankenfinder for some while now. Seems impossible to buy just the WATE at the moment

 

The Frankenfinder is big but the view it gives you is magnificent and positively encourages you to take a photograph!. I don't find it too fiddly - you soon get used to it.

 

The WATE generally has massive DOF so I just estimate the focus distance, set the camera on auto exp and use the Frankenfinder.

 

I dont have a filter for the WATE. When you set the camera to just lens detection 'on' it does not ask you to set the one of the WATE focal lengths.

 

Jeff

[jlm]

this has always bothered me:

"When you set the camera to just lens detection 'on' it does not ask you to set the one of the WATE focal lengths"

 

apparently, the vignetting portion of the Leica software applies the same correction (or none) regardless of FL setting for the WATE. Leica feels it only needs to be more specific for cyan correction?

[marknorton]

It seems that the exit pupil remains in the same (or very similar) position as you change the focal length so that the angle of incidence does not change. That means the same basic sensor corrections can be applied for any focal length (or in between since the lens supports zooming). This was a big advantage because Leica avoided the complexity of communicating the selected focal length to the camera.

 

Once you put an IR filter on the front, the entrance pupil does move around which means the light strikes at different angles and you get cyan. I haven't tried it, but I assume the cyan wiill show up if you try to use the lens as a zoom lens with an IR filter because the built-in correction applies at the 3 preset focal lengths only.

[Baxter]

Thanks so much to all of you, for giving your time and opinions to help me with this decision.

 

I went to Robert White today and looked at the WATE+finder. Lovely piece of equipment, but not right for me and my current way of thinking I will use the camera. This may change of course.....

 

SO YES! - they do currently have one WATE+finder ready to go to someone who is looking for this sought after set-up.

 

I bought a new Zeiss 21mm Biogon f4.5 , rectangular CV 28/35mm viewfinder and CV APO-Lanthar 90mm lens and screw mount adaptor. All of this was about half the price of the WATE.

 

The Zeiss is lovely and compact, as is the viewer which can stay attached with little inconvenience, unlike the Frankenfinder!

 

Thanks to all once again

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[boilerdoc]

The WATE is amazing, and the Frankenfinder does what it is designed to do. I just put it on and leave it. It is fiddly but, if necessary, just set it for 18/24 at infinity setting, set the lens for hyperfocal distance and shoot thru the finder. If you have the time to dial in the FL and Distance it is dead on. Used it in the Pantheon in Rome to get the framing i wanted and it worked like a charm. Didn't need to chimp as what I saw in the finder is what i got for the shot. If you can find one and afford it then it is a wonderful, and I really mean wonderful, lens. I love it!

Steve

[lars_bergquist]

Howard, you find changing bright frame finders 'fiddly'. But since the M4-P we have needed them only for 24 and 21 mm lenses, and who (except a suicide needing extra ballast) would carry both simultaneously? When I bring along a 21 or 15mm lens, I put the auxiliary finder in place before leaving home. No problem at all. You certainly wouldn't do that with the Frankenfinder/Boris Karloff Memorial Optic).

 

The old man from the Age of the Frame Finder