Another M10-D users report

[Guest]

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Ok, a couple of weeks into this and having recovered from my initial rant over the lack of a decent manual in the now rather ridiculous origami box of drawers that Leica still sends it’s new M’s out in I though it might be time to jot down a few impressions on this new MD. It’s personal, solely from my perspective and knowing that what I think about this new camera is likely to be different from other’s thoughts on it, but anyway here goes:

First out of the gate, this camera is simply beautiful, in the hand it’s like no other digital M even though yes I know, it’s still a M10 albeit with no LCD, but somehow to me the balance is very different, so much better. Why is that? I don’t know. Logically it shouldn’t be that much better than it’s LCD brother, but it is…….

Having got that over with, here’s some of the good points as far as I’m concerned and the quibbles too:

 

The elephant in the room with the M10-D is of course the faux film wind lever, and yes before I saw photographs of the camera there was a big “what the hell” in my head as there was, maybe still is, disquiet about that “feature” with a lot of people out there in Leica land. But after picking up the camera in the hand straightaway it all made sense. Do I now like the fact that it’s a “faux” wind on lever? Well perhaps not, but it works and that for me cancels out all the criticism I had over the thing. Will I be tempted like some to try and Dremel it off? Oh no, no way. It takes the place and performs it’s function better than the Thumbies I have on my MM1, M240 and the regular M10 and as much as I like the them on those other M’s I’m not going to saw off this faux wind lever and stick on another Thumbie.

 

The ASA setting knob now makes perfect sense on the M10-D, whereas for me I don’t like it at all on the regular M10, preferring the ASA setting functions on the M9’s and M240’s, i.e. via the menu that I find a much more sensible method. But of course no menus on the M10-D, so as said, the top dial now makes almost perfect sense.

 

The setting of the time and date was very confusing initially, and yes perhaps incompetency on my part has to bear some responsibility, but I have to say that the small sheet of “Quick Start Instructions” that were included with the camera instead of a full manual of some kind was less than helpful and lead to my mild rant on the forum bemoaning the lack of a “real manual”….and yes, I know about the online manual, but to me that wasn’t the point.

Anyway, I do have to say too that isn’t about time that Leica stopped using digital numerical readouts in the viewfinders of the M’s that seem to have been lifted directly from the original Casio digital watches from the early Sixties or Seventies? Surely there’s better available now days? These are right there with Pac Man. No other cameras that I know of have such clunky digits, all M’s ongoing from the 10’s should, please, have better VF readouts. Not more digits mind, just better.

 

Oh yes back to the manual, I did contact someone I know at Leica, and this week a “real” manual arrived. Sure it’ll probably be outdated if and when some updates will be made in future to the firmware of the camera, but I was more interested in getting familiar with the camera in the here and now and the “flimsy” just didn’t cut it for me. Now in that respect, with a real manual, I’m happier.

 

But onwards into the other thing that I do really dislike about this new “D”, and that’s the introduction of semi-reliance on the WiFi especially so in regards to the fact that you have to link this camera to a smart phone, ( in my case that would be an iPhone 5s, and no I don’t want a larger ‘phone to carry around ), to change the camera’s set-up, why? When was that considered a good idea?

This for me goes completely against what I see as the philosophy of an MD. Personally I have no need at all to send images to a smart ‘phone or tablet over WiFi, it’s quicker in fact to pull the card and download to a storage device or a computer if that’s what you really need to do, it’s easier too to switch out to a new card if the one in camera is full rather than downloading to a ‘phone and reformatting. Even the fact that you have to resort to formatting a card in camera by using a smart ‘phone I find really annoying. Better to carry a couple of pre-formatted cards if indeed you feel you’ll be shooting that much. If you’re in that much of a hurry to see your images then get a M10 for God’s sake, the D isn’t the camera for you.

 

And..........On switching out cards and batteries. Really, isn't about time Leica did away with the need to remove the whole base of the camera just to access the bottom right hand side to switch out the battery and memory card? They've got that with the Q and the SL, they sport a nice flip open door, so why not with the M's now.....PLEASE. 

 

Also after Leica having done a really great thing with the M10-D by making the Visoflex work extremely well on the camera why the hell didn’t they make it possible to access the set-up menu via the Visoflex too? That’s a real puzzle to me, could it really have been that impossible a task? Anyone know the answer to that? It’s the number one item on my firmware update list that’s for sure.

If it was feasible to access the set-up menu via the Visoflex then the M10-D would be freed from it’s dependability on tethering to a smart ‘phone for at least some if not all of it’s set-up functions and I for one would truly welcome that. I’m more than happy NOT to carry a ‘phone around with me unless I feel it’s really necessary, but then I guess too I’m well in the minority there. I’ve only to walk down any street anywhere to confirm that sad fact.

I don’t use it much but I do find the addition of the capability to use a Visoflex extremely useful for when shooting wider than 28mm, which I do often, and for those who like the longer FL’s it will prove to be a valuable asset.

 

Ok, next, the on/off/WiFi switch on the back of the camera. that I dislike too. I’d have much preferred the on/off switch to have been where they’ve always been, around the shutter release. The WiFi switch and the +/- exposure compensation dial would have been fine left there on the back of the camera but I find the camera on/off switch very inconvenient where it now is and not as instinctive to use when you raise the camera to shoot.

 

Shutter, well that’s just beautiful….damnit. Damnit, because if and when the M10 upgrade does materialise then I will be seriously tempted to have that done to my existing M10. I couldn’t care less about the M10-P’s touch LCD screen, wouldn’t want that done at all but if the shutter can be upgraded by itself then I’m probably in that queue.

 

I’ve not mentioned anything about the camera’s image performance, and that’s simple to explain here on the M10 Forum. At heart this is an M10, I’ve seen no difference at all between the files from my M10 and the files for the M10-D and nor I guess should there be.

 

I did mention at the start of all this that the M10-D is just great in the hand, I’ll say it again….It’s wonderful to hold especially so with small lenses. I don’t have any myself but this is the camera that would tempt me to seriously consider Leica’s Summarit line, ( if only they had a 28 and a 21 too ), but for now that GAS will have to await wallet recovery and I’ll content myself in the meantime with my Voigtlander Color Skopars which are in fact not bad at all in any respect.

This camera is definitely a nod to all the other past great Leica film cameras and although I’d gone through quite enough moans about it’s functions and features here in this post I have no regrets at all in buying this camera, to the contrary. Most of the things I do not like about the camera, the WiFi linking for instance, I can mostly ignore when the camera’s basically setup and all I have to do is deal with the normal things such as iris, shutter speed, focus and ASA, happily for me that’s all away from iPhone linkage. 

I love using this M, for me it’s the best digital M so far by a long chalk, period.

 

 

 

 

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[i-Leica]

'for me it’s the best digital M so far by a long chalk, period.' 

my opinion too..... its the M7 with scanner 

[IkarusJohn]

Are you sure you like the camera, Peter? 😀

On the WiFi issue, what settings do you feel the need to change?  ie, ones that force you to carry your phone with you when you would rather not?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Are you sure you like the camera, Peter? 😀

On the WiFi issue, what settings do you feel the need to change?  ie, ones that force you to carry your phone with you when you would rather not?

Hello IkarusJohn, oh yes I do like the M10-D, it's a "keeper" for me, a lovely piece of kit. I just don't like the Wifi connect-ability, however I understand that others will appreciate it and even find it useful. As I said I really do wish that the EVF was able to display the menu setup too so one didn't have to use the Wifi for that and have to carry a 'phone around too if you felt that you'd need to make setup changes, that's all........and the ability to view and download images to a connected 'phone? No, not for me, it's as I said against what I see as the whole philosophy of the MD, so I ignore that function.

[papimuzo]

Thanks Peter for this clear and pleasamt review.
Are you sure that you need to carry your phone with the M10-D? As I do,  you - possibly - change some settings of the camera according your special needs, at home, and go for shooting with the M10-D alone as a film M.
Enjoy your new toy and happy pictures with it.

[Guest]

Hello papimuzo, no of course once it is setup and except for formatting a card there should be little reason to have a 'phone with me, I know that. I was just trying to see if Leica could be nudged into making the menu options available / visible in the EVF, but of course I don't know if that is doable technically with the innards of the M10-D. Would be nice though, and would certainly make me even happier!

Edited November 23, 2018 by petermullett
spelling...

[scott kirkpatrick]

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14 hours ago, petermullett said:

............

This for me goes completely against what I see as the philosophy of an MD. Personally I have no need at all to send images to a smart ‘phone or tablet over WiFi, it’s quicker in fact to pull the card and download...

And..........On switching out cards and batteries. Really, isn't about time Leica did away with the need to remove the whole base of the camera just to access the bottom right hand side to switch out the battery and memory card? They've got that with the Q and the SL, they sport a nice flip open door, so why not with the M's now.....PLEASE. 

 

Also after Leica having done a really great thing with the M10-D by making the Visoflex work extremely well on the camera why the hell didn’t they make it possible to access the set-up menu via the Visoflex too?...

 

I don’t use it much but I do find the addition of the capability to use a Visoflex extremely useful for when shooting wider than 28mm, ...

 

I’ve not mentioned anything about the camera’s image performance, and that’s simple to explain here on the M10 Forum. At heart this is an M10, I’ve seen no difference at all between the files from my M10 and the files for the M10-D and nor I guess should there be.

 

.... for now that GAS will have to await wallet recovery and I’ll content myself in the meantime with my Voigtlander Color Skopars which are in fact not bad at all in any respect.

This camera is definitely a nod to all the other past great Leica film cameras and although I’d gone through quite enough moans about it’s functions and features here in this post I have no regrets at all in buying this camera, to the contrary. Most of the things I do not like about the camera, the WiFi linking for instance, I can mostly ignore when the camera’s basically setup and all I have to do is deal with the normal things such as iris, shutter speed, focus and ASA, happily for me that’s all away from iPhone linkage. 

I love using this M, for me it’s the best digital M so far by a long chalk, period.

 

The M10-D forces its user to do some things differently, and become aware of what those differences mean.  Hence all the strong reactions that people want to share.  Some of the differences don't really matter, but we still share them.  I don't think this is just an M-D, upgraded  to the sensor of the M10 and the shutter of the M10-P.  But it didn't come out of nowhere, either.  Stefan Daniel (according to several sources) has been wanting to do an M7 that makes digital images for a long time. While he can tell his people to do what he says, Jesko von Oeynhausen and a team of engineers whose names we don't know, have to be able to do it with no lost time and probably with very little extra money, but with great design and Wesentlichkeit.  So the M10-D has only two parts which are not already used in other products. It uses the same firmware as the M10-P (which is why all that function is hiding under the hood).  While cost is a good reason to keep the bottom plate, that solution is also more water-resistant that the CL's or Q's flip-open battery door.  The S and the SL use a battery that comes with its own water seals (and costs even more).  But the SL has connectors and chips coming out of both sides, something that Leica resisted in the CL and seems to be headed away from with WiFi.  

+1 on the little Visoflex.  On the M10, the Visoflex also doesn't see the menus.  I suspect that the live view feed comes from one part of the camera and the picture review stuff plus menus comes from another.  FOTOS gets the same live view feed as the Visoflex does, but it only sees into the files on the chip using standard mobile software tools.  Hence, no menus.  We'll have to ask Jesko and the nameless engineers what the difficulty is.

I think the M10-D's images are slightly different from the M10's.  A little brighter.  When I use the Leica M10 generic profile that comes with Capture One, I frequently get red highlights that get overexposed.in the output image.  That sounds like something that will get sorted out by Adobe and Phase One pretty soon.  I suspect that selecting a lens profile for an uncoded lens will get sorted soon as well.  It is only slightly more complicated (longer lists to scroll through) than problems FOTOS has already solved.  And, like you, I have gotten a few settings fixed to my satisfaction and put the iPhone away.

 

 

[robert blu]

Interesting user's impression, thanks. Is it possible to read the histogram and or give a quick look at the images through the Visoflex? Or it is only doable vie smartphone?

I almost never review the images on the LCD of the M10, I just give a preliminary  look in some difficult light situation, than I shoot without chimping.

Thanks in advance, robert

Edited November 23, 2018 by robert blu

[scott kirkpatrick]

The histogram appears in the visoflex.  Just one curve, not r, g, and b curves.  You can only look at the image that you just shot if you have set things up to hold it as long as the shutter is half-pressed. It seems to be the same live view as you get through the Visoflex with an M10.  At the moment there is no histogram to be seen when you review images on FOTOS.

[ramarren]

Peter, you would likely love the M-D typ 262 more, other than for the lack of EVF option capability. Nothing to set up (other than date and time, once), no options beyond what you use every day when shooting to set exposure and release the shutter. ISO setting in the right place. Power on/off in the right place. Handling nearly identical in every respect to an M7, or even an M4-2 barring the lack of meter and motorized film wind in the latter. 

I might someday buy an M10-D. But I'll not sell the M-D typ 262. 

[Guest]

Hello Ramarren, I've been waiting for you to join in!

I did try out a M-D 262 earlier this year, but after having  the M10 I am wedded to the thinner profile now. Also although I probably will not use it too much the Visoflex option with the M10-D is a real advantage especially with the wider lenses that I prefer on my M's. However in some respects you're right, if I already owned a 262 I probably wouldn't have moved up to the M10-D

[ramarren]

18 minutes ago, petermullett said:

Hello Ramarren, I've been waiting for you to join in!

I did try out a M-D 262 earlier this year, but after having  the M10 I am wedded to the thinner profile now. Also although I probably will not use it too much the Visoflex option with the M10-D is a real advantage especially with the wider lenses that I prefer on my M's. However in some respects you're right, if I already owned a 262 I probably wouldn't have moved up to the M10-D

When I tested and compared the M10 against the M-D, the thickness of the body seemed almost identical because the lack of LCD and buttons on the M-D allows me to put my fingers where they fall naturally, rather than having to be placed carefully so as not to bang into controls or LCD. And I have large-ish hands, such that I normally fit a thin half-case on my M4-2 so as to make it a little thicker, allowing me to grip it more comfortably. So you understand why this is not an issue for me at all... It's only a mm or two anyway. 

I am tempted by the M10-D for the EVF capability (enabling me to use it with my R lenses and macro/copy/tele lens setups, and including my lenses down to 15mm focal length), for the improved optical viewfinder and sensor, and for the fact that in use it will handle very similarly to the M-D. But that R lens capability has been filled at present by the CL, which poses other advantages for close up work. Whether to spend another large lump of cash to get the full frame format, nuances of viewfinder and sensor, and EVF functionality will take me quite a while to decide upon. 

In daily shooting, I only rarely use the smartphone app to control the CL and I suspect the same would be true for the M10-D. I use it mostly to review what's on the card and selectively download a file or three for processing while on the road: It proves more convenient to do that than to review card contents with iPhone or iPad using the card reader dongle, although it is actually a bit slower overall. I only very rarely change configuration on the CL, whether I had to do it with an app or can do it on the camera is mostly a non-issue. The ergonomics of a clean back and no distracting LCD on the M-D, or potentially the M10-D, really suits me. Plusses and minuses. I've gotten used to, and expect, WiFi control of full-featured cameras, what can I say?

But the M-D is special to me. It is what brings me back to the mindset of making photos for the 35+ years before digital but brings the quality, convenience, and capability of digital image capture and processing to that mindset. I never needed much more than aperture, shutter, focus, and shutter release controls to make my photographs... And with the M-D, I don't even have to wind the film on, and that pesky wind lever isn't in the way. I just love that.

[kepstein]

2 hours ago, robert blu said:

Interesting user's impression, thanks. Is it possible to read the histogram and or give a quick look at the images through the Visoflex? Or it is only doable vie smartphone?

I almost never review the images on the LCD of the M10, I just give a preliminary  look in some difficult light situation, than I shoot without chimping.

Thanks in advance, robert

Yes, both histogram and review are available when using the Visoflex.

Edited November 23, 2018 by kepstein

[papimuzo]

3 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

[.............................]

I think the M10-D's images are slightly different from the M10's.  A little brighter.  When I use the Leica M10 generic profile that comes with Capture One, I frequently get red highlights that get overexposed.in the output image. [...................]

 

 

I got exactly the same effect and happy to see that I'm not alone. On some pict. I prefered to use the DNG neutral profile as starting point.

[vhfreund]

A very interesting and fiery report on the M 10. Thank you for the vividly written "review" ! However, since I have a Leica M-A the retro issues with digital Leicas don't  make sense to me.  

Cheers Theodor

Edited November 23, 2018 by vhfreund

[Whitford]

On 11/22/2018 at 9:46 PM, petermullett said:

And..........On switching out cards and batteries. Really, isn't about time Leica did away with the need to remove the whole base of the camera just to access the bottom right hand side to switch out the battery and memory card? They've got that with the Q and the SL, they sport a nice flip open door, so why not with the M's now.....PLEASE. 

 

 

 

 

 

Hell no. Everyone else can keep their flimsy doors, thank you very much.

[Guest]

I don't have an SL, but I've had the Q since it first came out, what's that 4-5 years now? Never had one problem with it's battery/memory card door and the camera has had a lot of hard use......Nothing "flimsy" about that door at all and I suspect SL owners would be able to say the same too.

[papimuzo]

In case of need, the company  Leicatime  (http://www.luigicases.com/) is proposing some bottom plates for different cameras (Leica Mxx), with special door to access battery and memory cards.

Naturally I have no link with this provider; I only am a (satisfied) customer since years and use these type of bottom plates.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Whitford said:

Hell no. Everyone else can keep their flimsy doors, thank you very much.

I tried, but I didn't manage to break the CL one (nor X1 and X2) yet..

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, petermullett said:

I don't have an SL, but I've had the Q since it first came out, what's that 4-5 years now? Never had one problem with it's battery/memory card door and the camera has had a lot of hard use......Nothing "flimsy" about that door at all and I suspect SL owners would be able to say the same too.

SL and TL2 doors and battery access also excellent. The problem, as I recall, was with the Hasselblad X1D doors, wasn’t it?

Edited November 25, 2018 by IkarusJohn