Fullframe Pana-SL coming....

[helged]

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At least according to the rumors: https://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-made-a-new-full-frame-camera-for-leica/ and https://www.google.no/amp/s/www.thephoblographer.com/2018/04/30/panasonic-new-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-leica/amp/

Edited August 31, 2018 by helged

[Jon Warwick]

Here’s hoping it’s an SL2 with size and particularly megapixels similar to a Nikon Z7 .....well, that’d be my wish list at least.....

 

Seems a bit early though, given I thought Leicas were often on 4 year cycles, and the SL was announced in late 2015? ....again, here’s me hoping ....

Edited August 31, 2018 by Jon Warwick

[jaapv]

It may well be that an SL2 is coming up, and in that case there will be plenty of Panasonic cooperation inside, but these articles are completely confused, conflating the Panaleica line and Panasonic designed, but Leica-controlled Leica DG lenses, with the products from Wetzlar.

[Chuck Albertson]

Didn't Leica make a custom pano SL or S forKoudelka to shoot with?

[Photon42]

Didn't Leica make a custom pano SL or S forKoudelka to shoot with?

 

 

S2

[rjans]

It may well be that an SL2 is coming up, and in that case there will be plenty of Panasonic cooperation inside, but these articles are completely confused, conflating the Panaleica line and Panasonic designed, but Leica-controlled Leica DG lenses, with the products from Wetzlar.

 

 

In the interview from the Luminous Landscape Dr Kaufmann said there would be a successor for the SL. Perhaps it will be announced at the Photokina.

It's indeed no secret that there is a strong cooperation between Leica and Panasonic. When the X Vario was launched I've found, could be on DPReview, someone analyzed the electronics inside the camera and much carried the label Panasonic.

 

If Panasonic launches a full frame mirrorless would that mean the start of the end of m43?

[jaapv]

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I doubt it. The format has a strong following and is making inroads in professional use.

[jaapv]

 

It's indeed no secret that there is a strong cooperation between Leica and Panasonic. When the X Vario was launched I've found, could be on DPReview, someone analyzed the electronics inside the camera and much carried the label Panasonic.

 

The same for Q, SL, TL, CL, M10

[db24fps]

Both of those articles are four months old, so I'm not sure we have any recent information. 

 

 

While Dr Kaufmann did indeed talk of a sleeker successor to the SL in the Luminous Landscape interview, acknowledging they're developing a new model is about as surprising as him saying that they have plans for an M11. What I think could perhaps be more relevant is that in the same interview he also said there was more to the L mount than we currently know and went on to say all would be revealed in June, but curiously we ended up hearing nothing, so evidently something prompted them to delay news on that front. A month after that interview, and alongside the Panasonic information in April, there were also rumours of a new L mount full frame camera, which I think many dreamed would be an M mount CL but Stefan Daniel flat out denied was the case, however a full frame L mount that sits between the CL and the SL in the line up could well be what this new product is, and with it might come some some smaller full frame L mount lenses (you would have to imagine that if such a camera were to exist, and was smaller, that there would have to be as so many already complain of SL glass even on the SL body). We could, effectively, be looking at an L mount answer to an interchangeable lens Q I suppose. A QL?  What ruffles the theory somewhat in linking it back to the information gained from the Luminous Landscape interview however is that we know the L mount can cover full frame, so such a product wouldn't really justify Dr Kaufmann's tease about there being more to be said as far as the L is concerned. Whatever the case, my suspicion is there's something else to come before we see the SL2.

 

 

While I know for some there's anxiety over how the sensor and af tech specs in the SL hold up in comparison to the latest Sonys and now the Nikon Z and Canon EOS R, to me it just feels a little too soon for the SL2 given the pace at which Leica like to refresh their lineup. What's more, with the speed these huge manufacturers churn out their revised models, such anxieties are sure to resurface even if an SL2 hits the market 12-18months from now as it would inevitably be followed quite soon after by rumours and news of second generation mirrorless revisions from Nikon and Canon, and whatever the heck generation Sony will be on by then (I've lost count at the rate of which they keep announcing new models). In short, such anxieties are never going to go away for those who continually fret over the latest technological advances that occur year upon year, and I don't expect Leica to respond to such advances with such frequency. I doubt they could even if they wanted to. I certainly wouldn't write off the SL as we currently know it as an end of life product by any means. Even today I think it's one of the most innovative, thoughtfully designed and inspiring professional digital cameras that I've ever seen and I expect its eventual successor to really be something special given the platform the original has established to build off of. Just this past week I had another play with one and it just clicks for me, and I'm in love with those Summicron primes both for their optical quality and how beautifully they balance with the SL body).

 

A small but satisfying bump to around 30mp sensor resolution would be nice and allow for versatility while not commanding obscene file sizes. Given Leica never chased the highest resolution even in the S in the face of other medium format alternatives I'm not convinced they'll look to mirror something like the D850's resolution with an SL2. Beyond that one would naturally expect dynamic range and iso sensitivity improvements, and af improvements. I don't think I could ask for more than that in a revision, really. If Leica feel it's time for the SL2 then so be it, they'll unquestionably have my interest, but even in the wake of the latest mirrorless news the current model still has my attention.  

[ramarren]

I could care less about 'bumps' to the pixel resolution, etc .. If it happens, it happens. Now that I have 24 Mpixel cameras to work with, it's mostly irrelevant since I don't need any more resolution for the print and image sizes I produce.

 

A Panasonic sibling of the SL, would be fine by me ... Although I don't see it happening in any realistic sense. I likely would not be buying it anyway, since if I still had the SL I would still be perfectly satisfied with its current capability. The SL turned out to be more than I needed for my photography, both size and weight but also features, and I decided I wasn't using it enough to warrant holding onto it.

 

I replaced the SL with the CL and find this is a "just right" pick for me, with a size and weight right in the same ballpark as my M and performance right there too, while having the TTL viewfinder I need for close in and tele work. A CL with a 24Mpixel FF format sensor, no other changes other than a socket for a remote release (please!) and the same battery as my M-D (more capacity, likely a little bulkier body as a result) would be something of interest ... although whether I'd actually spend the money for it is debatable at this point.

 

I'm at the point where I'd rather make photographs than spend energy debating and buying equipment. New stuff will come along and I'll occasionally buy something, but it's neither a pressing need or a burning desire. This is good.

[Chuck Albertson]

Just another teaser - when I toured the Leica factory last week, the window where you could otherwise watch camera final assembly was covered, with a reference to some "new, innovating product" to come.

[db24fps]

I could care less about 'bumps' to the pixel resolution, etc .. If it happens, it happens. Now that I have 24 Mpixel cameras to work with, it's mostly irrelevant since I don't need any more resolution for the print and image sizes I produce.

 

 

 

24MP, without an AA filter and paired with high quality glass is an exceptional combination I quite agree. I do expect a small increase though nevertheless, if only because one would expect the camera to have a four-year lifespan and there will come a point where even just from a marketing perspective anything below 30 in a few years might be sneered at (perhaps unfairly given how good I feel 24mp with the aforementioned attributes is, but sneered at nevertheless because that's just how how people can be, especially in the photography community). I also think it would help better set the SL apart in the Leica family of cameras as the M could happily live on as a 24MP camera for many, many years as far as I'm concerned. It's the perfect sweet spot.

 

 

 

A Panasonic sibling of the SL, would be fine by me ... Although I don't see it happening in any realistic sense. I likely would not be buying it anyway, since if I still had the SL I would still be perfectly satisfied with its current capability. The SL turned out to be more than I needed for my photography, both size and weight but also features, and I decided I wasn't using it enough to warrant holding onto it.

 

 

I don't think it would be a Panasonic camera any more than the Q and SL are "Panasonic" in that they assisted with the electronics (the varying depths of Panasonic's relationship with Leica seem to be something many photo bloggers regularly fail to research and understand as Jaap noted earlier). If it were a full frame model to sit between the CL and SL then I do have to scratch my head as to how it could exist without cannibalising interest in the other cameras, the CL in particular. I'd expect such a camera to come in at around £3500-4000. Any higher and it begins eats into the SL's territory (and if this camera even exists, you'd think that it probably would have a slightly better sensor than the current SL just because of progress and the passing of time), any lower and anyone looking at the CL might think why bother when a bit more would net them a full frame camera. Then there's the Q factor of course which does currently sit at around £3500, but you are getting both a camera and a Summilux lens for that price, so a full frame body only for roughly the same cost might not hurt the Q too much. 

 

I look forward to Leica revealing something completely different that isn't anything like an SL2 or anything else we're theorising over here. 

[db24fps]

Incidentally, starting this week there is a £600 promotion on the SL. Trade in any DSLR against the purchase of an SL and get 600 off the price (no idea if this is global or for specific territories). Leica's way of lowering the cost of entry and increasing the user base amidst the fuss over new alternatives coming to the market, or Leica's way of clearing some stock ahead of an SL2? I don't know how long the offer is supposed to run until. 

[thighslapper]

I'm not terribly convinced there will be a Leica that sits between the SL and CL that is full frame either ....... the smallish CL/TL lenses can only be used cropped, and all the SL lenses are big. There is no mileage in a 3rd line of intermediate lenses ...... and both M & R lenses can be used easily on L mount cameras. 

 

As for Panasonic producing a FF mirrorless with or without Leica co-operation I can see no economic advantage for Leica at all ...... third party L mount compatible lenses or bodies will just erode Leica sales. 

 

Leica needs an SL2 soonish that has a few innovations that make it stand out amongst what is becoming a sea of rather similar FF mirrorless cameras. Just producing another model to add to their already rather unmanageable portfolio is daft. 

 

Most of us don't mind paying a premium for Leica build quality and the access to lenses which are often in a different league to other manufacturers, but if the basic specs are not in the same ball park as comparable much cheaper cameras then Leica will fail to attract new users ..... and probably lose some longstanding supporters. 

[sdw]

Well said, thighslapper. The FF pro mirrorless arena isn't the same ballgame as digital rangefinders — you have to stay current and make a compelling product. The SL should be updated. 

 

I find this subforum's insistence that '24MP is adequate' in almost every thread fairly amusing. I never thought I missed much with my old cameras either, but shooting on my A7R2, the resolution doesn't hurt. It's always nice to get a higher resolution: you can crop at your leisure, detail is greater and more dynamic range wouldn't hurt either. I think we'll likely see some of the SL2's tech in this new Panasonic camera, and I, for one, am excited with whatever higher-resolution sensor that'll be  

[Jeff S]

Incidentally, starting this week there is a £600 promotion on the SL. Trade in any DSLR against the purchase of an SL and get 600 off the price (no idea if this is global or for specific territories). Leica's way of lowering the cost of entry and increasing the user base amidst the fuss over new alternatives coming to the market, or Leica's way of clearing some stock ahead of an SL2? I don't know how long the offer is supposed to run until.

Also $600 in US through December 31.

 

Jeff

[db24fps]

Leica needs an SL2 soonish that has a few innovations that make it stand out amongst what is becoming a sea of rather similar FF mirrorless cameras. Just producing another model to add to their already rather unmanageable portfolio is daft. 

 

That's what ultimately brings me back to thinking whatever they might reveal next will be neither some hypothetical body that sits between the CL and SL, or an SL2. With the former I just stumble over too many obstacles that one would have to imagine could risk cannibalising its neighbours. While I absolutely agree they can't leave it too long for an SL successor, I feel they'll want to keep an eye on what the others are offering, and indeed if it is true that Panasonic are launching an full frame body then we could surely expect some features from that to trickle down at a later date. In this era of diminishing returns when it comes to all this technology, by the time an SL2 does launch I am not sure what the camera could lead with in innovation, and again once it is out we can be sure some people will then start talking about 2nd gen mirrorless from Nikon and Canon that will not be far behind, talking about how the specs all compare on paper and on and on the cycle will go. Like everyone else, I naturally have expectations of improvements regarding the fundamentals and video (in particular video the more that I have thought on it), but I suspect one of the most defining characteristics of the SL will continue be its design and handling (which I adore). An even implementation of modern desired features, and and a thoughtful implementation at that is where I think Leica are best placed in terms of constantly having to keep up with the Jonses so to speak. 

 

 

 

I find this subforum's insistence that '24MP is adequate' in almost every thread fairly amusing. I never thought I missed much with my old cameras either, but shooting on my A7R2, the resolution doesn't hurt. It's always nice to get a higher resolution: you can crop at your leisure, detail is greater and more dynamic range wouldn't hurt either. I think we'll likely see some of the SL2's tech in this new Panasonic camera, and I, for one, am excited with whatever higher-resolution sensor that'll be

 

 

I think the SL and S, as Leica's most versatile tools, are arguably the best placed cameras in the lineup to have resolution improvements. I definitely want and expect to see it in a successor, but I do suspect Leica will want to balance whatever improvement we get there with a resolution bump in an inevitable 008 S revision (which isn't to say the higher resolution is the only factor to drive anyone toward using an S of course, but still...). 30, 35, 38MP in an SL2 perhaps, moving to anything above 40 or 45 in an S might not be an unrealistic expectation. The current S sensor seems quite remarkable, so they really need to ensure nothing is lost in increasing the resolution there. With the S007 just turning three years old my thinking would be to expect an update there first in the months ahead of an SL2.

 

Whatever we get, whenever we get it, I'm excited for what's to come as I think with the Q, S and SL Leica have established a genuinely brilliant platform of products to build upon and refine. It feels like Leica's most interesting era in a long time. 

[thighslapper]

Leica decided .... probably 5 or 6 years ago that mirrorless was the future and designed the SL ...... leap-frogging past Canon and Nikon and coming close to catching up with Sony.

 

The SL2 would have been on the drawing board 3 years ago...... and what transpires is dependent on what sensor and processor technology Leica can either get their hands on or get custom designed. Everything else is just tinkering with the original concept.... as with the M10 succeeding the M240.

 

Personally I can see little point in keeping the S as a DSLR ....... I would follow the SL and CL with a mirrorless S and consolidate a lot of the technology and manufacture into a trio of MF, FF and APS-C cameras with 3 lines of lenses that have some cross-over, a fairly uniform menu system and similar ergonomics. The M is already mirrorless and shares a lot with the other Leica digitals. It makes writing the firmware and manufacture so much easier.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the S and SL2 appear together ...... looking very similar and the only major differences being due to the size and resolution of the sensor and the anticipated use of the camera. 

 

They just need a stonkingly powerful, power efficient processor and cutting edge sensors that improve on current DR, resolution and AF........

Edited September 1, 2018 by thighslapper

[Jeff S]

A mirrorless S would require a new line of lenses, and an adapter for existing S lenses.  And it would disappoint many who see the beautiful OVF as one of the core features of the S system.  Although I can certainly understand the benefits of streamlining the Leica offerings, I'm not sure that's Leica's goal...just yet...and think (at least next generation) S will remain a DSLR.  It's one thing that can distinguish the S from the mirrorless competition, even though some would see that as a negative.  

 

I'd be surprised if we see the SL2 before 2019, but who knows.  Leica led the pack for FF mirrorless, and I'm sure they want to remain a leader in that increasingly crowded market.  While Photokina no longer seems to be as important for new product introductions for most companies anymore, the next one after September is only another 8 months away in May, 2019, as the event goes annual and moves to the Spring.

 

Jeff

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[jaapv]

The point is, however, that these rumours suggest that it would be a Panasonic camera with a Leica rebrand.

I very much doubt whether Leica would even consider this for one of their major camera systems.

The source of these rumours appears to be the same as the Zenith stuff, which has gone silent since March.