Stepping over from a DSLR to an M8

[stunsworth]

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Most of the best and most famous work done with Leicas has little to do with sharpness.

 

Indeed if you've ever seen any of HCB's work up close you'll realise that's the case <grin>. His dismissal of sharpness as being 'bourgeois' was pretty accurate IMHO. Give me an interesting soft photograph over a boring sharp one any day.

[frv]

give me an interesting sharp well focussed photo any time over anything else ....lol.

 

I wonder if all owners of M8's are totally honest. I also got answers on the same question by well know owners of the M8 who told me that the M8 is not what I was looking for. The M8 is lacking flexibility for lenses, is let accurate in focus issues, lacks natural colour without filters and all together its expensive and so are its lenses.

 

I have seen many proud M8 owners rave about their posted work where critising the lack of focus would be "not done", the photos was supposed to be art and as such above technical critisism.

 

The M8 is a wonderful camera for sure, in the hands of a professional, someone who know's the issues and loves to come up with work-arounds. Most professionals also use other camera's are not so worried about their decisions to get an M8 or not, some even can now use their Leica lenses as well as an added bonus.

For an amature to spend this much money on a Leica and lenses and getting him or herself into explaining the lack of sharpness is just great is unreal.

 

I am planning to buy a M8, love the idea of a small camera with small fantasitic wide angle glass. I am used to use 4x5 technical camera's which are even more manual than the M8. But I love to look at the Canon 5D galleries for the gorgeous super sharp portraits and other incredible work done with the DSLR. I am not expecting anything like that with the M8. Most galleries I see done with the M8 are disturbing, dark photos, out of focus photos, balck and white grainy kind of stuff or photos that look a little hard and mangenta to me. I feel that those effects are specific of the problems of using rangefinders by people who are not used to rangefinders and also because of some specific M8 issues that are actually unwanted but can be dealt with by filters and postprocessing.

 

I do know the M8 is a magic camera, it really is. Not because of the price but because some photographers are capable of geting outstanding results comparable with top of the line DSLR cameras and lenses. And they do so without much on automatic and with a smaller and less initimaditing camera that also has the look and feel of a tool made by and for artists.

It must however been said that for most people the M8 is a bit too much resulting in less good photos than they where used to. Those experiences are also to be found on this forum.

 

My plan is to buy and M8 and some cheap but great voigtlander lenses. This way I won't loose to much when I decide to sell the M8 after some months. I won't mind loosing 1000 euro's in a year just to have been able to get a tiny voigtlander 12mm infront of great old house in Spain under suberb afternoon lighting conditions .....lol. For the same price I could also carry a 5D and a Schneider 28 mm TS lens. Probably getting a much better photo but with less fun.

 

I have to say that using the 5D I always set the camera on a preferred aperture or speed depending on the subject. So for me even the 5D is mostly automatic just for focus and even that I only use spotffocus and then compose. All automatic never pleases me and as such I am also not so worried about the M8 being manual.

[charlesphoto99]

Yes, manual focusing is much more difficult with the D200 than the M8 (even more difficult than a full frame slr due to it's 1.5x crop) but what I think is more important is that idea of having to think through and implement all of your picture making decisions at once instead of letting the camera take care of some or all for you. Once the original poster is okay with that, then it's an easier transition to a rangefinder, IMO.

 

Not sure what the poster above is on about sharp vs unsharp. I have just as many blurry images from my slrs as my Leicas - some work due to the subject, place, intention, etc most don't. I don't think there's any rule out there that a image has to be tack sharp to be good, esp when it comes to reportage and street style shooting.

 

Anyway, my philosophy behind shooting is that one needs to think both fast and slow at the same time. Fast enough to capture the moment; slow enough to make that moment a "photograph" (vs merely a recording). Leicas have always worked well in this regard for me due to their simplicity and quick handling yet their implicit design that forces one to think about what one is doing.

[frv]

Its true that dslr's also give you their share of focus issues. Most consumers would never get used to the manual focus technique though. For photographers who feel they belong in all honestly to the consumer market they should be carefull expecting a lot from the Leica magic for their files. It might be so that a simple compact would actually improve the files they come home with from their travels. Printing large might not be fine but who does really?

[Philinflash]

...

 

A couple days ago I was at Arlington Cemetery for a military funeral. There's no way I would have felt ok carrying a big camera. But the M8 was fine. It's small, discrete appearance, relative quiet, and lack of flash gave me access to something I otherwise would not have been able to capture.

 

By all means treat yourself to this wonderful camera.

 

Jeff

 

Gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous, Jeff.

[gareth_c]

My photos aren't exactly a testament to the virtues of any good camera so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but...

 

Enjoyment, thats the key for me and why the M8 (and an RF in general) is a must have. I tend to shoot with aperture priority (one less thing to consider) but I LOVE using an RF camera. I already enjoyed my R-D1 (my first RF) but the rangefinder on the M8 (which I have had just a few days) allows for faster and more accurate focusing IMO.

 

Having something light, always to hand is important. More than that, using an RF is fun. I enjoy every photo I take and being an amateur that is my top priority, honestly more than the resulting image (just as well).

 

When my Canon AE1 was stolen I pretyy much gave up on photography as I just didn't 'get' all the new DSLR's. Whe I chanced upon Leica's Digilux 2 I felt like I found a camera again that allowed ME to take the photos. I loved the on lens aperture ring along with all the other 'old fashioned' designs it had incorporated. When I then found out about RF's (yes, it was like they were a new invention) I fell in love with photography again.

 

I actually plan to get a D200 soon (probably in august) but only for certain tasks, and when I do I will be looking for lenses that allow me full, and easy, control of aperture and focus. I will of course get a bells and whistles, fully auto everything zoom lens to play with!

[ceflynn]

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Jager,

 

Thank you for choosing the example you did.

[andym911]

Dear Forum,

 

 

I took the test, and set my D200 to a completely manual mode (no auto-focus, no matrix-metering, etc ...). The result is very worrying, and even worse than for the first time driving a race car with a 7-speed manual gearbox, coming from an automatic. When taking my time, the shots are, half the time, more or less decent. For real-world photographs though, the ones the M8 is supposed to be made for, it’s a disaster. Somewhere I read that a Leica-M photographer, when seeing a picture opportunity, is supposed to be able to instantaneously preset correct focus, exposure time, aperture (and with the M8, ISO), lift the camera to his eyes, shoot, and that’s it. When I try to do this, certainly with moving objects, it spells disaster.

 

I truly fear that if I would buy an M8, I would soon regret not being able to really use this device, and put it on a shelf, just to admire it for its aesthetical qualities. And that would be a shame, certainly considering the hefty price-ticket.

 

Maybe it’s better to await the up-coming Nikon D3, pay a comparable price (I only need the body, not the lenses), (maybe) have the same excellent pictures as with the M8, and retain the electronic assistance. Or am I just being a coward, and should I take the plunge ?

 

Probably a lot of you own both DSLR’s and an M8, and grew up with automatic camera’s. What were your experiences when you gave up the electronic wizardry?

 

Thank you !

 

Bert

Bert,

my advice is definitely DO NOT buy an M8.

You say yourself that currently the manual shots you take are a disaster.They won't be any better with an M8, and why should they.

My advice is but a used M6 and 35mm summicron, use it in parallel with your Nikon and see if the rangefinder is for you.This will give you a great opportunity using manua mode on exposure, focussing etc and give you an insight into the goods and bads of using a rangefinder.If it works out you sell of the M6 body for about the same as you paid (about 800,00 euro), keep the lens and buy the M8.

If it does not work out for you you sell body and lens and have not really lost anything, and wait for your D3;)

Your resell price on an M8 will be definitely lower than you paid for it, maybe a lot lower.

 

good luck

andy

[frv]

I am trying to figure out what I would like best. In Holland there is no way you can test the M8 so I have to go by what I see looking at the galleries. I have found myself liking the portaits, travel photography and architectural photography galleries at Fred Miranda and other sites done with the Canon 5D more pleasing in terms of sharpness, colour and general image quality. Over the years I have found myself buying cameras looking at other peoples photos and their tools. I like the link between results and tools. Good photos to my liking are made by photographers who choose the same tools as I do. The reviews I read by Sean and Micheal show me that I am probably better served with a top dslr. My heart wants an M8 so thats why I am still here reading and commenting on the threads ....lol. My mind is trying to talk me into something cheaper and equaly pleasing as far as the result are going to be. My clients don't care at all, as long as the site where I put the photos of their buildings on look fantastic. I can do that even with my Sony R1...or even Panasonic LX2.

I saw a few years back a French guy showing his cellphone picts on the web. I was blown away by the compositions and colourful images. Why am I always thinking I need a M8 or 5D or top lenses.....in fact I really do need expensive cameras to feel happy taking picts.

[Guest stnami]

Francois, I am in pretty much as in agreement with your points.

I would only get the M8 for being able to use the older lenses for their fingerprint even though the same results are possible in post processing, but it does eliminate a step or two. I don't chase super sharp images so a rangefinder or a consumer DSLR suits my needs, The 8 works well above my expectations and I do like the robust files still paying five Gs for a B&W camera could be a dumb move especially with no filters and post processing Raw images with a magenta cast, hard work to get tones right. Right now I am getting my best results from film ,though it is possible to increase the density of digital files by sandwiching the the files on top of one another with varying tones alterations etc.

 

me an interesting soft photograph over a boring sharp one any day.

me an interesting sharp photograph over a boring soft one any day.

[sean_reid]

Indeed if you've ever seen any of HCB's work up close you'll realise that's the case <grin>. His dismissal of sharpness as being 'bourgeois' was pretty accurate IMHO. Give me an interesting soft photograph over a boring sharp one any day.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes, and I think some other people may be getting confused about this.

 

To All,

 

The poster's focus comment was in response to someone's observations about zone focusing (pre-focusing) which, of course, is an imprecise method of focus that many of us use often (and that HCB used as well).

 

Somehow, some seem to have conflated that with the M8 files being unsharp. That, of course, is not the case. The camera is able to focus most lenses very, very well.

 

Always gets tricky if and when people aren't reading carefully and decide to respond nonetheless.

 

So, to be clear, any camera that is zone focused may not have razor sharp focus at a desired plane. That has nothing to do with rangefinder cameras. An M8 with a well-adjusted rangefinder is quite able to focus most lenses precisely.

 

Hope that's clearer for some who were getting confused about this. A point can get lost and/or misunderstood on a forum in the blink of any eye.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[stunsworth]

Sean, if I remember correctly HCB had a marking painted onto the focus ring of his lenses at something like 2.5 or 3 metres so that he could pre-focus easily - presumably because this was his 'normal' operating distance.

[sean_reid]

I don't recall but I wouldn't be surprised. I've been using zone focusing forever it seems.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest localplayer]

Hey there Bert...I am a newbie here so take my advice with a grain of salt...

 

I just shot the M8 for the first time this week--just posted a few pics in the travel section below.

 

I have been shooting Canon (came over from Nikon D2H awhile ago). I do NFL, PGA, MLB, etc for agencies, mags and whoever will pay (less and less these days). basically--i am sent out to cover a game or news event and HAVE to deliver usable shots per the event contract. So i take a different approach with the DLSR than maybe others and find the M8 is a great 'trainer camera'.

 

The M8 will make you a MUCH better DLSR shooter:

 

1) Many of us DLSR shooters only, or at least 90% of the time, shoot in manual exposure and aperture mode--we need to control the shot and can't depend on AE.

 

2) Even though we use auto focus, we often true-up with the manual ring--do this a lot. Even have to use manual focus in certain situations---so learning how to focus quick is critical. Knowing your dof is key also.

 

3) You need to learn how to use W/B as well as the video guys--this is critical as many press guys do jpegs--no time to edit thru 100 shots at half-time and push them to the editors before the second half--w/b, color, exposure better be spot on in camera.

 

4) You should also know your preset marks in your digital camera--will 'cloudy day' work to pull color in if you don't have time for a w/b? what about 'florescent' with certain types of newer florescent bulbs? (probably run blue)

 

 

I was amazed and very pleased that the m8 was a piece of cake to work with--I could quickly set it up for a situation and it performed consistently. in the end the M8 was every bit as quick a camera for people shooting as are my canon's --- just WAY easier to take into a 'people environment' and not freak out any one, which is not the case with 2 mk 3's and whooper zooms on them. but when the NFL rolls around this fall, the canon's are coming back out.

 

good luck with your decision. it really isn't either or or--each tool has a purpose as do your nikon and the leica. but don't let the M8 scare you off--it really will improve your DLSR shooting a ton.

[Jager]

Thanks Philip and Charles. The funeral at Arlington was without a doubt the most solemn and dignified event I've ever attended. Quite moving.

 

Jeff

[dhsimmonds]

Bert

 

You didn't mention which lenses you used with your D200? If you used good quality Nikon zooms then you might struggle with an R/F camera with solely prime lenses.

 

Whenever I switch from using a prime lens on my R9 SLR to a zoom............my composition goes to pot! A whole new ball game of both composing and focusing becomes essential when moving from (D)SLR's particularly with zoom lenses to R/F's.

 

You may also have to be prepared for more frequent lens changes to get the shot.

[Bert Stynen]

Dave,

 

In answer to your question: I primarily used my D200 with the Nikon 18-200mm zoom. Occasionally, I also used a Nikon 12-24 mm zoom. Since I’m reading about the Leica, I have purchased a nice little Nikon 50 mm /1.8 AF-D prime, and a second-hand Nikon 24 mm / 2.8 AF-D prime (these were my first primes ever). Ever since I have acquired these prime lenses, I use them all the time. I love the weight-reduction, the fact that I have to spend more time composing the picture, and the good quality of the shots. Could I be an M8-type after all ?

 

Bert

[carstenw]

Try manually focusing them and using only manual shutterspeeds and apertures for a while. If that doesn't bother you, then you could be right

[George61d]

I shoot with Nikon (d200/D2x) and an MP.

 

As said above manual focus on a D200 is not fun and not easy - you have no split screen, the electronic rangefinder may not be looking where you are and the modern lenses have poor tactile feedback and no DOF information.

 

So long as you stick around f5.6 or above - gaining acceptable as opposed to 100% accurate focus is easy particularly as mostly you will use a wider angle lens say 28 or 35. You can use hyper focal techniques or try pre-focusing. When sitting on trains etc I spend time practicing guess the distance to an object and then pre-focusing without looking at the camera, then bringing the camera to my eye to check the focus. At first I was crap at it, but eventually it starts to sink in. The trick is to start at infinity as there is less lens rotation required.

 

The downside is that with the M8 there is less room for error on the exposure than there is with film due to the dynamic range of the two media. That just comes down to experience which you can easily gain with the D200 before taking the plunge to the M8.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jdos2]

I started my foray into the hobby on rangefinders with the Mamiya Universal as my first, and found the image quality outstanding, and the huge thing a blast to work. manual everything. had to buy a meter.

 

My last Leica was an MP, though I've owned an M3.

 

When digital came 'round, I jumped on the 5D bandwagon and had fun with that, too. Auto everything, and the focus was usually fairly close ('ceptin' on the flagship f/1.2 50mm...)

 

I finally got a Leica M8. The exact same things apply as before. Get a workflow. Get a way of reducing variables. Make it habit. With the Universal, it was wind-lens-wind-film-darkslide-aperture/filmspeed-focus-shoot. With the 5D the flow was much shorter (though not so short if I wanted the best white balance!).

 

Reduce your variables. My flow with the M8 is white-balance-iso-aperture-focus-frame-shoot. I let the shutter take care of itself except when it's obviously wrong (shoot a couple thousand frames- you get better at call "bollux!" on the auto-exposure). Done a couple hundred times in a day, you get better quickly.

 

J