Missing Actuator Arm for MOOLY (to use with IIIa)

[M9reno]

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I cannot recall which of my cameras worked with my MOOLY and which did not work. I know that not all that should work with it ( according to SN) did actually work. I think that you are giving very good advice here. I have a lot of eligible cameras and I knew that at least one of them would work. I would suggest that anyone seeking to match a MOOLY with a specific camera should ideally bring the camera to the dealer that is selling the MOOLY. If you are buying online you need to ask the online dealer whether you can return the MOOLY if it does not work. Finally, the arm comes in two parts ( front and back) which can part company. I have Blu Tack on mine to hold the front and back together. It works very well on matching cameras. My MOOLY is an early two speed model which is supposed to have the higher speed disengaged, but you can get the higher speed by pushing the little button on the front right bottom - see photo above.

 

 

 

William

Thanks, William.  Just to note that the intermediate and later MOOLY's had the lower (not the higher) speed disengaged.  In other words, they all shot at 2 fps, rather than 1 fps.  Is yours the other way around?

[willeica]

Thanks, William.  Just to note that the intermediate and later MOOLY's had the lower (not the higher) speed disengaged.  In other words, they all shot at 2 fps, rather than 1 fps.  Is yours the other way around?

 

Thanks Alfonso. Mine is numbered 726 and could, perhaps, be classified as 'intermediate'. I understand that some of the models with a front button have some kind of metal obstacle put under the button to avoid the 2 FPS setting being engaged. Mine has no such obstacle and if you push the button to the right (facing the camera) it will fire at 2 FPS, but you have to keep the button pressed as otherwise it will shoot at its normal 1 FPS. I am not sure what speed the later MOOLY models without the button used. It is all academic as the weight alone is a discouragement to frequent use. The other big issue is that all early Leica winders such as the SCNOO, MOOLY and SYOOM are , in my experience, very choosy about which cameras they will work with and which ones they will not work with. I know that others deny this, but that is my experience. My advice to anyone who wants to purchase one of these winders is that they should test it with its intended camera mate before purchase.

 

William

Edited March 22, 2018 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

Once I have the IIIa in my hands and have given it a good check over, I will decide what to do. I may well go up to London and make a visit to Red Dot. It is about time I organised a retired partners lunch anyway and I want to try the Duck and Rice restaurant in Berwick Street, not too far away from Red Dot. Ivor will know the IIIa as he has just done a CLA on it and on that basis, should feel it is safe to try on the customer's MOOLY. 

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

Peter Walnes is listing a 2-speed MOOLY, though looking a bit beaten. It includes the arm. And the price isn't bad. (Obviously I've no relation to this or to Peter Walnes).

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F372255279906

[wlaidlaw]

Peter Walnes is listing a 2-speed MOOLY, though looking a bit beaten. It includes the arm. And the price isn't bad. (Obviously I've no relation to this or to Peter Walnes).

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F372255279906

 

Many thanks for that link. Over the years I have bought a lot of stuff from Peter and I checked his website - nothing and today still nothing. He cannot have updated it for a while to include the MOOLY he is selling on eBay. I will probably buy that one and clean it up, as I like the idea of 2 speed. I find the 2fps of the later ones a bit too fast. At least with Peter if it does not work, you know he will sort it out. I have some tubes of an excellent German paste for cleaning up grubby chrome, which I use to get the cooked insects off the exhausts of the big Vee twin engine on my Morgan Three Wheeler - effective without being too abrasive. 

 

Wilson

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

Thanks, Wilson.  The MOOLY was just listed on eBay this morning - I think for the first time - so that might explain why it's not on Peter's website.

 

PS:  Having the box is also nice.

Edited March 23, 2018 by M9reno

[wlaidlaw]

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Thanks, Wilson.  The MOOLY was just listed on eBay this morning - I think for the first time - so that might explain why it's not on Peter's website.

 

PS:  Having the box is also nice.

 

I have sent him a message. 

[wlaidlaw]

Peter tried the MOOLY on a IIIa with a serial very close to mine and it worked perfectly, so I have bought from him. 

 

Wilson

[willeica]

Peter tried the MOOLY on a IIIa with a serial very close to mine and it worked perfectly, so I have bought from him. 

 

Wilson

 

Let us know how the actual 'marriage' works, in due course.

 

William

Edited March 23, 2018 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

Everything arrived this morning. Both in reasonable condition but a couple of niggles which should have been sorted at CLA with Red Dot. Slow speeds below ⅛th don't run at all and ⅛th is sluggish. There is also a problem with the take-up spool. The clip is squashed totally flat against the spindle and it's impossible to slide film in. I could sort this myself but I also think the spool is distorted and it would not run with film and the MOOLY at all. Swapped for a spare Leotax spool and after a bit of fiddling all is well. There is a bit of what I suspect may be oil fogging in the Summar but not too bad. I will send it to Alan Starkie in the autumn to have it serviced + front element repolished and if he has his vacuum sputtering hard coating machine up and running by then, I will get the Summar coated as well. I have plenty of other LTM lenses I can be using pro-tem. At the moment, I have a 50mm Summicron V Special Edition on the IIIa. 

 

Can anyone help me out with a .pdf or scan of the English Language 2 Speed MOOLY manual? 

 

Wilson

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[willeica]

How's your German? Mike Butkus of Orphan Camera has the instructions in German from 1940 and Jim Lager shows the cover of 1939 instructions in English. Indeed, if you have Jim's Accessory Guide it pretty much gives all you need to know about all the MOOLY variants on pages 58 to 62. Both of the instruction books, from 1939 and 1940, seem to relate to the later single speed model. I have 3 part instructions in English from 1937 for Leica cameras and accessories, but the only rapid wind covered is the SCNOO, even if some of the references to SN 159000 etc are also relevant to the MOOLY.

 

It is a fairly easy device to use. The button marking 2 should give you a higher speed. If it does not, you can screw off the button to see if there is a blocking item inside. Leica modified some early models to prevent 2FPS being engaged to avoid damage to camera internals.

 

The ultimate test will be to put a roll of film through. If you have issues , the spool is the first place to look, but you already seem to have taken care of that.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

William, 

 

I am a bit obsessive about having manuals for everything photographic. I saw Mike's German language version but it is a bit beyond the amount of German that remains in my greyware  . I have taken a screen grab, used OCR and fed it into Google translate. It has come out even more gobbledygook than the average Leica manual. I have had a look through my 1938 Morgan and Lester but that was probably written before the MOOLY arrived that same year (according to Lager and Laney). I must have an older version of Jim Lager's Accessory Guide, as the MOOLY section on mine is on pages 22 to 25. Dennis Laney quotes Lager virtually verbatim in his collectors guide.  I will have a try on RFF, as occasionally I have tracked down odd manuals on that. 

 

Wilson

[M9reno]

Wilson, Here is a quick-'n-dirty scan from Lager's _Leica Literature_.

 

 

2018-03-24-0004.pdf

[M9reno]

In the instructions above, note the description of setting the transmission arm so that it rests 2mm above the edge of the threaded collar.  This is not in either of the German instructions that I have read, and resolved the problem with my own MOOLY (the distance was too short).

 

Also, since William has raised a possible connection between the change from dual to single speed with avoiding damage to the camera internals, I thought the following would be useful:

 

"Earlier than expected, a limited supply of Leica Motors arrived in this country and all of them are already in use.  It is interesting to recall only the first few models possessed means for adjusting the speed to 1 or 2 exposures per second... The reason for this feature having ben deleted now is that the number of exposures per second cannot be given with any degree of accuracy for the factors which make for or work against speed are quite numerous.  First of all it depends on the speed to which the shutter is set.  Obviously with 1/1000th sec. the succession of photographs will be quicker than with, for instance, 1/20th sec.  Secondly the speed of the motor depends on the tension of the springs, and this is greater for the first few exposures than it is for the last.  In addition the friction under which the film is wound on and which is controlled by he thickness of the film and by the respective make of cartridge in which it is loaded into the camera must be taken into consideration.  For the latter reason it is especially recommended to use as far as possible the special metal FILCA which allows the film to wind on entirely free from friction, since, as all Leica users know, this chamber opens itself as the lid on the camera is closed.  With so many factors influencing the speed with which successive photographs can be taken it was thought advisable to omit the adjusting knob."

 

Source:  "Leica News and Technique" no. 36 (1938), pp. 143-44.

 

This is, so to speak, straight from the horse's mouth - E. Leitz, London, 20 Mortimer Street.

 

So - to repeat - there shouldn't be any worry about damage to the camera internals by using a MOOLY at either speed!

[wlaidlaw]

Wilson, Here is a quick-'n-dirty scan from Lager's _Leica Literature_.

 

Many thanks, that is much appreciated. it is much longer and more detailed than the German version, which I have been struggling my way through, with help appropriately from a 1938 edition of Cassells English German dictionary, left over from when my mother was a teacher in Berlin in 1938/39. I suspect that Jim Lager's book is one I really need to get. 

 

Wilson

 

PS Leica Manchester had a new copy at less than some US stores were asking for a used one.

Edited March 24, 2018 by wlaidlaw

[willeica]

In the instructions above, note the description of setting the transmission arm so that it rests 2mm above the edge of the threaded collar.  This is not in either of the German instructions that I have read, and resolved the problem with my own MOOLY (the distance was too short).

 

Also, since William has raised a possible connection between the change from dual to single speed with avoiding damage to the camera internals, I thought the following would be useful:

 

"Earlier than expected, a limited supply of Leica Motors arrived in this country and all of them are already in use.  It is interesting to recall only the first few models possessed means for adjusting the speed to 1 or 2 exposures per second... The reason for this feature having ben deleted now is that the number of exposures per second cannot be given with any degree of accuracy for the factors which make for or work against speed are quite numerous.  First of all it depends on the speed to which the shutter is set.  Obviously with 1/1000th sec. the succession of photographs will be quicker than with, for instance, 1/20th sec.  Secondly the speed of the motor depends on the tension of the springs, and this is greater for the first few exposures than it is for the last.  In addition the friction under which the film is wound on and which is controlled by he thickness of the film and by the respective make of cartridge in which it is loaded into the camera must be taken into consideration.  For the latter reason it is especially recommended to use as far as possible the special metal FILCA which allows the film to wind on entirely free from friction, since, as all Leica users know, this chamber opens itself as the lid on the camera is closed.  With so many factors influencing the speed with which successive photographs can be taken it was thought advisable to omit the adjusting knob."

 

Source:  "Leica News and Technique" no. 36 (1938), pp. 143-44.

 

This is, so to speak, straight from the horse's mouth - E. Leitz, London, 20 Mortimer Street.

 

So - to repeat - there shouldn't be any worry about damage to the camera internals by using a MOOLY at either speed!

 

Thanks Alfonso for the manual for the later MOOLY. The Jim Lager book I was referring to is the large book, 'Leica, An Illustrated History Volume III-Accessories'. The cover of the manual you have provided is shown on page 59 of that book. In using the term 'internals' I was including film and film cassettes. I just could not recall the specific issue that caused difficulties with the 2 FPS setting on the early MOOLYs. That piece from Leica News and Technique from 1938 is, as you say, from the horses mouth. I have used my MOOLY at both 1FPS and 2FPS and with modern film cassettes (I have about a dozen FILCAs, but I don't use them) and no damage to any element ensued. 

 

The MOOLY was a tremendous technical advance for its day, but it was anything but perfect at launch. As such, the MOOLY is a somewhat temperamental device and must be well matched with the camera and shooting procedure to get good results. The best way to master it is to put a few rolls through the camera with MOOLY attached.

 

William

[wlaidlaw]

Thanks Alfonso for the manual for the later MOOLY. The Jim Lager book I was referring to is the large book, 'Leica, An Illustrated History Volume III-Accessories'. The cover of the manual you have provided is shown on page 59 of that book. In using the term 'internals' I was including film and film cassettes. I just could not recall the specific issue that caused difficulties with the 2 FPS setting on the early MOOLYs. That piece from Leica News and Technique from 1938 is, as you say, from the horses mouth. I have used my MOOLY at both 1FPS and 2FPS and with modern film cassettes (I have about a dozen FILCAs, but I don't use them) and no damage to any element ensued. 

 

The MOOLY was a tremendous technical advance for its day, but it was anything but perfect at launch. As such, the MOOLY is a somewhat temperamental device and must be well matched with the camera and shooting procedure to get good results. The best way to master it is to put a few rolls through the camera with MOOLY attached.

 

William

 

The only annoying thing for me, is that is my very last Leotax spool, which I find much better than Leica ones in LTM Leicas. The later M3/IIIg spool seems far less problematic. They never seem to bind up and are far easier to remove, so you are not scrabbling around looking for a pair of pliers to change films. I do know where there are a couple of the very similar Canon RF ones. 

[alan mcfall]

MOOLY is a watchmaker like marvel.  Here are some internals.  I never wind mine past 8 or 9 as occasionally one sees a broken main spring. I am not certain that max winding causes a problem, but I perfer to be cautious.

 

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Alan,

 

The general rule with watch & clock springs (Keeping in mind that the mechanical mechanisms in a 35 mm camera are to a great extent derived from the watch & clock industry.) is that:

 

When the spring is mostly run down it is relatively easy to wind. The increase in tension as you wind is pretty much gradual & arithmetic.

 

Then you will begin to feel a greater rate of increase in resistance as the spring becomes tighter. This is when the spring begins to get logarithmically tighter to wind as you tension it.

 

THAT is the point where you stop winding. It is better to not wind further because:

If you underwind the worst thing that happens is that the clock, watch, or MOOLY stops somewhat sooner.

 

If you overwind there are all types of potential perplexities: Broken springs, broken parts & bent & twisted parts as a result of a spring slipping or breaking. And more.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

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[willeica]

The only annoying thing for me, is that is my very last Leotax spool, which I find much better than Leica ones in LTM Leicas. The later M3/IIIg spool seems far less problematic. They never seem to bind up and are far easier to remove, so you are not scrabbling around looking for a pair of pliers to change films. I do know where there are a couple of the very similar Canon RF ones. 

 

I have a spool for every LTM camera I own, so I must have somewhere between 30 and 40 of them. The condition and construction of these spools vary enormously. If I have a problem with one of them I simply swap it around with another one. I have a few that are very tight and which need a pliers or other implement for removal from the camera. The one Leotax spool which I have works perfectly. The MOOLY will put all internal parts under stress, so it is important to have a spool that fits nicely and does not get stuck.

 

When you are winding the MOOLY, you will, as Michael says, feel the wind tension gradually increase. I can usually get about 10 or 11 frames on a wind. The maximum indicated is 12. I think that Alan's advice is good, though, and that a wind of 8 or 9 is enough if you wish to avoid over-tension which might damage the internals.

 

William