IIIc black paint Leitz Eigentum

[jerzy]

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this is follow up on the posting from Alan in the Pecole's thread about early postwar IIIc.

Many authors quote that the only black paint IIIc produced were from the series of so called Leitz Eigentum. Serial numbers quoted differs insiginificantly.

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I researched shortly known sources (auction houses, literature, my records) and put together a list of Leitz Eigentum cameras form this lot.

Some of them had pictures attached, some (especially quoted by Giunta) were just mentioned with serial number.

I found as well some anomalies:

- black paint Leitz Eigentum with serial number outside of the assigned lot - here a caution shall be applied, most probably dismanteling the camera could provide some hints if it is original

- black paint with SN from the assigned range but without Leitz Eigentum - was  top cover have been replaced in a later time?

- 5127429 - chromed, no Leitz Eigentum, with unusual engraving "Noco A/S Kobenhavn". This camera was obviously converted after 1954 (capital letters GMBH, etc)

I have a copy of Leitz delivery records showing numbers around my 517519. They are empty. This is not a surprise to me, these cameras were for not for sale, I suppose that when they have been borrowed or sent to a dealers it was recorded in different places than delivery record (Auslieferungsbuch).

I spent just few hours only on my research, if anyone will find cameras with SN from above range (with or withour Leitz Eigentum) Allan and me would happy to receive the note.

 

 

[ironringer]

Thank you Jerzy (and Alan previously) for this excellent start to compiling a list of known black IIIc cameras, and chrome cameras with s/n within the "known" range for the black beauties. We hope that others are identified to add to this knowledge base.

Lovely vintage camera, as are all old, black Leicas. More pictures will attract attention ...

[kangaroo2012]

Hi Jerzy,

I have a black 3c with Leitz- Eigentum engraving #517483 bought in Sydney from  a well

known German dealer in 1980s. It has the black dial 3F conversion and flash contact beside the 

eyepiece. The engraving is filled with white paint as are all other engravings on the camera.

I also have the predecessor  a Leica 1 (C standard) engraved Leih-Kamera # 70741.

It was bought from an elderly German lady who bought it from a shop in Germany where she worked

pre war, before migrating to Australia. The engraving was painted black as is the camera.

Some very interesting pieces have turned up here, including the first known Gold Leica and

Leitz gold binoculars from that time.

Cheers

Kangaroo 2012

[jerzy]

thank you very much for this information! It is not unusual, that these cameras have been converted to IIIf, some of them have as well self timer.

I believe that I will spend some more time on this topic revisiting the references and whenever possible make notes abut other details.

I want to record:

- flash sync y/n

- self timer y/n

- screws for top cover chromed or black - I believe that I have seen few converted cameras with chromed screws 

What screws do you have on your camera? do you have self timer?

Another topic, however not easy to determine is how to find out if the SN has not have been "corrected". 

IIIc and IIIf have SN engraved insde of camera, on the frame.

On IIIc it is engraved here

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on IIIf it has been moved to the right

on IIIc factory converted to IIIf SN was scratched on the place around release button, old SN is partially visible under the flash contacts (I do not have appropriate photo at the hand now)

Because black paint Leitz Eigentum have much higher collector value than regular IIIc opening the camera and checking if the SN insode and outside are the same could give more evidence that the camera is genuine BP LE.

 

Does anyone of LF members has/ have seen other cameras from this series? Pls report with details as above. I will complie than the full list and publish on Forum

thank you 

[willeica]

thank you very much for this information! It is not unusual, that these cameras have been converted to IIIf, some of them have as well self timer.

I believe that I will spend some more time on this topic revisiting the references and whenever possible make notes abut other details.

I want to record:

- flash sync y/n

- self timer y/n

- screws for top cover chromed or black - I believe that I have seen few converted cameras with chromed screws 

What screws do you have on your camera? do you have self timer?

Another topic, however not easy to determine is how to find out if the SN has not have been "corrected". 

IIIc and IIIf have SN engraved insde of camera, on the frame.

On IIIc it is engraved here

1.JPG

on IIIf it has been moved to the right

2.JPG

on IIIc factory converted to IIIf SN was scratched on the place around release button, old SN is partially visible under the flash contacts (I do not have appropriate photo at the hand now)

Because black paint Leitz Eigentum have much higher collector value than regular IIIc opening the camera and checking if the SN insode and outside are the same could give more evidence that the camera is genuine BP LE.

 

Does anyone of LF members has/ have seen other cameras from this series? Pls report with details as above. I will complie than the full list and publish on Forum

thank you 

 

Thanks Jerzy. I have send you details by pm of my IIIc/IIIf conversion with self timer, but retaining sharkskin.

 

William

[jerzy]

Thank you William. I am more interested in cameras with SN from the range 517 395 till 517526, so the cameras with SN assigned to Leitz Eigetum. My explanation about SN engraved inside was more what could be checked to verify authencity, I fully understand that probably none of the owners will do it.

[Guest]

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A black paint IIIc Leitz-Eigentum with serial number 519744 sold at yesterday's Tamarkin auction for USD16,500. 

The serial number is interesting because it falls outside the range of serial numbers usually mentioned for the black paint IIIc:

• vidom 96 (p. 62): 517401 - 517525
• vidom 65 (p. 13): 517395 – 517525
• vidom 58 (p. 8): 517396 – 517525
• vidom 47 (p. 11): 517395 – 517525 
• vidom 21 (p. 15) : 517395 – 517525 
• 10 Jahre LH: 517396 – 517526 (45 in chrome, already mentioned by Jerzy in this thread)
• Giunta: 517395 - 517525 (already mentioned by Jerzy in this thread)

I wonder what the story is behind 519744. Was the buyer brave to bid so much for a camera outside the published serial number range?

[willeica]

8 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

A black paint IIIc Leitz-Eigentum with serial number 519744 sold at yesterday's Tamarkin auction for USD16,500. 

The serial number is interesting because it falls outside the range of serial numbers usually mentioned for the black paint IIIc:

• vidom 96 (p. 62): 517401 - 517525
• vidom 65 (p. 13): 517395 – 517525
• vidom 58 (p. 8): 517396 – 517525
• vidom 47 (p. 11): 517395 – 517525 
• vidom 21 (p. 15) : 517395 – 517525 
• 10 Jahre LH: 517396 – 517526 (45 in chrome, already mentioned by Jerzy in this thread)
• Giunta: 517395 - 517525 (already mentioned by Jerzy in this thread)

I wonder what the story is behind 519744. Was the buyer brave to bid so much for a camera outside the published serial number range?

I missed the auction as I was doing something else. I note that an early square front FISON lens hood sold for $1300. I paid the equivalent of $100-150 for my one about 7 years ago.

William 

[willeica]

9 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

A black paint IIIc Leitz-Eigentum with serial number 519744 sold at yesterday's Tamarkin auction for USD16,500. 

The serial number is interesting because it falls outside the range of serial numbers usually mentioned for the black paint IIIc:

• vidom 96 (p. 62): 517401 - 517525
• vidom 65 (p. 13): 517395 – 517525
• vidom 58 (p. 8): 517396 – 517525
• vidom 47 (p. 11): 517395 – 517525 
• vidom 21 (p. 15) : 517395 – 517525 
• 10 Jahre LH: 517396 – 517526 (45 in chrome, already mentioned by Jerzy in this thread)
• Giunta: 517395 - 517525 (already mentioned by Jerzy in this thread)

I wonder what the story is behind 519744. Was the buyer brave to bid so much for a camera outside the published serial number range?

I'm not sure about this camera. There was never a production black paint IIIc and it is outside the range on Jerzy's list above. Why would there have been so many Leitz-Eigentum black IIIcs? Demand from employees? It also sold for well above the estimated range. However, even if it is genuine it is above the Collectiblend range for such items https://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leica-IIIc-Leitz-Eigentum-(black).html . Prices for rare items are still on the way up, though. Caveat emptor etc.

There were a lot of passed items in yesterday's auction. I note an aluminium keeper for a 9cm Elmar sold for $250. A few years ago I got one of those for €100 with a 9cm lens, which was in excellent condition. Such bargains are becoming harder to find at auction these days. For what it is worth, Flints Auctions in the UK had a far higher percentage of sold items on Thursday and they seemed to have bidders from the US who would have had to pay import duty etc. Dan Tamarkin did sell some high end items for large prices, though, which are at the end of his catalogue. Flints sold an LHSA Hammertone set for £17,500 and a Summilux 35mm (the original of the recently re-introduced item) for £15,000, both prices include premium. Leitz Auction is next Saturday.

William 

Edited November 20, 2022 by willeica

[pippy]

15 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

...The serial number is interesting because it falls outside the range of serial numbers usually mentioned for the black paint IIIc...

Nowhere in the description does it state that the Black Paint finish is original. No paint-wear anywhere? No paint-loss from the threads of the tripod socket? Judging by the wear to the chrome finish on the top-edge of the wind-on knob I suspect that it might well be a repaint...

Philip.

[250swb]

I think almost certainly a re-paint, the scuffs on the lens mount and strap lugs look like the camera has been used more than the black paint suggests. And on the back is that poor clean-up of white infill paint in the vulcanite?

[zanchetta luigi]

On 1/3/2018 at 02:56, kangaroo2012 said:

Ciao Jerzi,

Ho una 3c nera con incisione Leitz-Eigentum n. 517483 acquistata a Sydney da un pozzo

noto rivenditore tedesco negli anni '80. Ha la conversione 3F del quadrante nero e il contatto flash accanto al 

oculare. L'incisione è riempita di vernice bianca come tutte le altre incisioni sulla fotocamera.

Ho anche il predecessore una Leica 1 (standard C) con incisione Leih-Kamera # 70741.

È stato acquistato da un'anziana signora tedesca che l'ha acquistato da un negozio in Germania dove lavorava

prima della guerra, prima di emigrare in Australia. L'incisione è stata dipinta di nero così come la fotocamera.

Alcuni pezzi molto interessanti sono apparsi qui, tra cui la prima Leica Gold conosciuta e

Binocolo d'oro Leitz dell'epoca.

Saluti

Canguro 2012

hi, i also have a leica n. 517483 , I think mine is fake , do you have a picture of yours ? Thanks Luigi, from Italy.