Good news from Wetzlar

[kparseg]

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I would much rather have a $20,000 S008 at 60-80MP than any of the current mirrorless at 100MP. I would never use something I didn't like. If I *needed* a high MP camera and I were running a business, then, sure, cost might rise above usability. The absence of Capture 1 is a more serious problem for the S than its cost, but then Phase stuff is just too heavy. Wonderful equipment, but I'd never use it.

 

And are you being deliberately obtuse? Or do you really find Gordon's "Leica is successful with their pricing" and "I think the S is ludicrously expensive" statements contradictory. No matter. Your eagerness to tell us that we're crazy has earned a spot on the cherished ignore list. 

 

Matt

First of all, I'm not in any ignore lists, so check your facts. I've always been polite, contrary to other members including you, who called me obtuse with no reason. 

 

So far, neither you nor Gordon were able to demonstrate any data that would confirm the statement that Leica is successful because of its overpriced S system. If you can share with us these data, please do so. If you cannot, please do not call me obtuse. 

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[Jeff S]

First of all, I'm not in any ignore lists, so check your facts.

He won't see your comment since he has added you to his personal 'ignore list', which is a forum screening function.

 

Jeff

[erl]

Reading this thread is like "pulling teeth".

[Jeff S]

Imagine if the topic was bad news from Wetzlar.

 

Jeff

[xiaubauu2009]

As a counter point I'd say this....

 

Almost every camera manufacturer or division is currently struggling. The exception is Leica. Both sales and profit are up again this year. And They're about they only one. The other manufacturers have played the price war with each other and they ALL lost. Furthermore since it was announced that Nikon were in trouble most of the major manufacturers have started increasing the prices on new models. The price wars are over except where Leica don't play, the entry level DSLR market. The D5, 1Dx2, 5D4, D850, EM1.2, XT2, A9, A7R3 and others all now all more expensive than the models they replaced by a double digit percentage. Camera manufacturers are very slowly realising that they need to increase profit margins because the days of low profit high volume are slowly disappearing.

 

Currently, Leica is healthy. They sell as many cameras as they can make. They regulate supply and maintain margins to stay healthy. They're innovating (sort of) with new models and product lines. there's obviously a lot of R&D going on somewhere deep in Wetzlar. It's not like they can live off their sensor division like Sony and just throw sh*t at the wall to see what sticks. They can't move their camera technology into their printer or copier division to profit share. Where they want to compete or where they have stock they react, like with the SL price drop. But when there's still a waiting list after a year (Q) prices are what people are willing to pay.

 

No one wants to pay more than they have to. However, if Leica charges less they become less healthy as a company. This is not a good thing. We want a healthy Leica.

 

The only reason to drop prices would be to be available to a wider economic demographic. To sell more stuff and become more mainstream. It's a big leap to think that Leica can do that or even want to. Do they want faster growth? Do they want bigger production runs with the possibility of more stock on shelves or in warehouses? Do they want to expand their marketing base, management and logistics? Even if they wanted to could they make more M10's each month or hold more stock of CL's in a warehouse? Say they do drop prices and maintain quality. What's in it for Leica?

 

Personally, if Leica are going to change, I'd like to see a dramatic improvement in the announcement to release schedule of the promised SL lenses. Keep the money and get going with the development of more CL lenses. Followed promptly by an complete overhaul of their service centre and policies. Because there's another way to increase markets share. Rather than dropping prices increase the value of the products with support and efficient service.

 

Your assertion is incorrect. Leica don't need to drop their prices. As they healthiest camera company in the world, they're doing just fine as they are.

 

Gordon

 

 

Sales figure is up cause it was low to begin with... It's not that hard to sell 2 and conclude with business improvement of 100% compare to last year sale of 1... ( I am exaggerating, but I guess you know what I mean). It's easier (I am not saying it's easy, just easier compare to to mega giant). 

 

IMO, Leica is doing well in all areas with the exception of Leica S. Most enthusiast will not put out that amount of cash for S especially the AF system trouble that is claim to be fixed and an antiquated sensor technology, no matter how good the glass is, hence no new customer (real new customer, not enthusiast who want to try out the S by buying good priced second hand, which make leica no new business). As for professional, I can't say, cause I am not one. I can only come from a enthusiast side of the viewpoint.

 

Having said, all that, Leica can improve the prospect of the S easily by just making a properly reliable S008 with up to date sensor technology and I think they are still relevant in the future. Resolution war/Technology advancement, they might never win, but they should fight in the niche segment of the market (BW medium format), where every year they can report favourable financial gain to their investor by aiming small and specific.

[kparseg]

Going back to the topic.... I think that Leica S is a great system and there is not that much to improve, except quality control and customer support (won't repeat the price anymore). 

 

What I (and probably some other folks) would want to see in S008 are: mirrorless design, combined OVF/EVF (Leica SL has the best EVF), face detection/more AF points, modest increase in MP (but if they can offer 100MP, I'd happily take it). Mirrorless would be great to reduce the size/weight and to compensate for the mirror vibration that forces to set a fast shutter speed. 

 

I feel that Leica is doing great with variability of S lenses, but I know some of you guys wanted to see 200-350mm lenses. Leica's S24, 45 and 100mm are among the best and that's all I'd buy if I add S system as my second system.

 

Phase One came out with its trichromatic sensor from Sony, and this kind of technology would be something nice to have too. 

 

Faster maximum shutter speed would be great too, to avoid using ND filters.

 

Not sure if it's even feasible, but I'd love if Leica could offer a larger sensor on a higher end model. These Sony's sensors on Phase One and Hasselblad (trichromatic and achromatic) are great and will become even better next year, when new generation hits the market. I'm a little skeptical that Leica would use Sony sensors, though. 

[xiaubauu2009]

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Going back to the topic.... I think that Leica S is a great system and there is not that much to improve, except quality control and customer support (won't repeat the price anymore). 

 

What I (and probably some other folks) would want to see in S008 are: mirrorless design, combined OVF/EVF (Leica SL has the best EVF), face detection/more AF points, modest increase in MP (but if they can offer 100MP, I'd happily take it). Mirrorless would be great to reduce the size/weight and to compensate for the mirror vibration that forces to set a fast shutter speed. 

 

I feel that Leica is doing great with variability of S lenses, but I know some of you guys wanted to see 200-350mm lenses. Leica's S24, 45 and 100mm are among the best and that's all I'd buy if I add S system as my second system.

 

Phase One came out with its trichromatic sensor from Sony, and this kind of technology would be something nice to have too. 

 

Faster maximum shutter speed would be great too, to avoid using ND filters.

 

Not sure if it's even feasible, but I'd love if Leica could offer a larger sensor on a higher end model. These Sony's sensors on Phase One and Hasselblad (trichromatic and achromatic) are great and will become even better next year, when new generation hits the market. I'm a little skeptical that Leica would use Sony sensors, though. 

 

 

Larger sensor, that won't happen unless Leica change the entire lens lineup. The image circle is 60mm for most of the wide angle lens.

For faster maximum shutter, you will need electric, and it won't be able to be achieved by mechanical shutter particularly.

 

PhaseOne has very weird color profile to begin with, at least from my IQ3 100mp sample. Cause they didn't realize that they need to properly look at the microlens design to get better color off from the sensor and now they 'fix' their problem and charge 40kUSD for doing a 'good' job. Hahaha.

[kparseg]

Larger sensor, that won't happen unless Leica change the entire lens lineup. The image circle is 60mm for most of the wide angle lens.

For faster maximum shutter, you will need electric, and it won't be able to be achieved by mechanical shutter particularly.

 

PhaseOne has very weird color profile to begin with, at least from my IQ3 100mp sample. Cause they didn't realize that they need to properly look at the microlens design to get better color off from the sensor and now they 'fix' their problem and charge 40kUSD for doing a 'good' job. Hahaha.

My understanding is that colors on "usual" IQ3 are very similar to trichromatic version except the sky colors are more accurate. I'll look closely at a new trichromatic IQ3 next year... I do have color blindness to a minor extent, so I have to rely on color accuracy of sensors and ColorChecker. 

 

I can't really comment on physical reasons why a larger sensor isn't feasible but I'd assume you're correct. Can there be 2 models, a traditional OVF S008 and mirrorless one with a Sony 645 sensor and few lenses? 

Edited December 20, 2017 by kparseg

[hoppyman]

My understanding is that colors on "usual" IQ3 are very similar to trichromatic version except the sky colors are more accurate. I'll look closely at a new trichromatic IQ3 next year... I do have color blindness to a minor extent, so I have to rely on color accuracy of sensors and ColorChecker. 

 

I can't really comment on physical reasons why a larger sensor isn't feasible but I'd assume you're correct. Can there be 2 models, a traditional OVF S008 and mirrorless one with a Sony 645 sensor and few lenses? 

Peter Karbe (leader of their optical design team) has stated in the past that the physical dimensions (24x36) of the S sensor will not change, however the lenses are capable of out-resolving their next generation of sensors too.  I think that it is very unlikely that any sensor from Sony would be used in a future S camera for commercial relationship reasons at the very least. Of relevance too is that no one else uses the 2:3 proportions in medium format designs either. What a hypothetical S008 will bring is of interest to lots of us. Coming from the S2 I am extremely happy with the Typ 007, while I might like to see some of the capability of the SL included, certainly. Two parallel medium format ranges from Leica seems commercially very unlikely in my opinion as well. Its a tiny portion of the market after all,.

[mgrayson3]

As has been mentioned before, there already is a mirrorless S - the Sinar 30|45 back, S-CS adapter, and S-CS lenses.

 

I would not look to a big change to the S body, but a sensor update is likely.

 

--Matt

[Paul J]

As has been mentioned before, there already is a mirrorless S - the Sinar 30|45 back, S-CS adapter, and S-CS lenses.

 

I would not look to a big change to the S body, but a sensor update is likely.

 

--Matt

 

Kinda, sorta, but not really a mirrorless alternative.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Paul J

[Paul J]

Larger sensor, that won't happen unless Leica change the entire lens lineup. The image circle is 60mm for most of the wide angle lens.

For faster maximum shutter, you will need electric, and it won't be able to be achieved by mechanical shutter particularly.

 

PhaseOne has very weird color profile to begin with, at least from my IQ3 100mp sample. Cause they didn't realize that they need to properly look at the microlens design to get better color off from the sensor and now they 'fix' their problem and charge 40kUSD for doing a 'good' job. Hahaha.

The first time I've heard that. The IQ3 100, in my experience is untouchable.

[Jeff S]

Peter Karbe (leader of their optical design team) has stated in the past that the physical dimensions (24x36) of the S sensor will not change....

We know you meant to say 30x45.

 

Jeff

[xiaubauu2009]

The first time I've heard that. The IQ3 100, in my experience is untouchable.

 

 

They are very hard to get natural looking color. they certainly has a look. but I find it harder to get into the color I like. Part of the reason why I use it so little...

But resolution wise, it's so great.

 

Alpa 12FPS + Contax 645 120mm f/4 APO Macro

PhaseOne IQ3 100mp

 

 

Alpa 12FPS + Contax 645 35mm f/3.5

PhaseOne IQ3 100mp

[xiaubauu2009]

Peter Karbe (leader of their optical design team) has stated in the past that the physical dimensions (24x36) of the S sensor will not change, however the lenses are capable of out-resolving their next generation of sensors too.  I think that it is very unlikely that any sensor from Sony would be used in a future S camera for commercial relationship reasons at the very least. Of relevance too is that no one else uses the 2:3 proportions in medium format designs either. What a hypothetical S008 will bring is of interest to lots of us. Coming from the S2 I am extremely happy with the Typ 007, while I might like to see some of the capability of the SL included, certainly. Two parallel medium format ranges from Leica seems commercially very unlikely in my opinion as well. Its a tiny portion of the market after all,.

 

 

Agree with the sensor size cause the lens is design to work with 45x30 size sensor. The density of 6micron is quite nice and large and I think Leica over engineer to be able to resolve at the very least up to 50~60 megapixel of much higher density, maybe 4.something something micron. They only need to make sure they have better and more reliable zoom. That zoom lens is really a dog... and cost so much!

[djmay]

The density of 6micron is quite nice and large and I think Leica over engineer to be able to resolve at the very least up to 50~60 megapixel of much higher density, maybe 4.something something micron.

 

One of the effects of higher resolution is smaller pixels. From what I understand, diffraction comes into play when the circle of confusion is larger than about 1.5 pixels. With the S006, I notice diffraction effects above f13. I would expect that the effects will be present at a wider aperture with smaller pixels, which could be a problem for me. Assuming that the next sensor would be about 60 mp, does anyone have an idea of the aperture at which diffraction becomes visible?

 

Also, I think S lenses can resolve much higher than 60mp; perhaps 100mp.

 

Jesse

Edited December 20, 2017 by djmay

[xiaubauu2009]

One of the effects of higher resolution is smaller pixels. From what I understand, diffraction comes into play when the circle of confusion is larger than about 1.5 pixels. With the S006, I notice diffraction effects above f13. I would expect that the effects will be present at a wider aperture with smaller pixels, which could be a problem for me. Assuming that the next sensor would be about 60 mp, does anyone have an idea of the aperture at which diffraction becomes visible?

 

Also, I think S lenses can resolve much higher than 60mp; perhaps 100mp.

 

Jesse

Not all of them could. The zoom most definitely cannot.

The Contax645 zoom is even better than the Leica S zoom

Edited December 20, 2017 by xiaubauu2009

[xiaubauu2009]

One of the effects of higher resolution is smaller pixels. From what I understand, diffraction comes into play when the circle of confusion is larger than about 1.5 pixels. With the S006, I notice diffraction effects above f13. I would expect that the effects will be present at a wider aperture with smaller pixels, which could be a problem for me. Assuming that the next sensor would be about 60 mp, does anyone have an idea of the aperture at which diffraction becomes visible?

 

Also, I think S lenses can resolve much higher than 60mp; perhaps 100mp.

 

Jesse

 

 

Testing on the GFX 50mp sensor which I think is about 5.something micron, using a Contax 645 APO Makro Planar 120mm. I find that diffraction start to creep in at about f13~f15... I think it's about the same as Leica's 6micron sensor. When shooting on the 100mp which is 4.6micron sensor, I only every keeping it at around f11.... anything over that is asking for trouble.

 

The future 100mp 44x33 sensor will have a sensor pitch of only 2.something micron... that's going to be a big tax on all these lens, unless they have some micro lens trickery.....

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[hoppyman]

We know you meant to say 30x45.

 

Jeff

yes, well 24x36 is technically correct as proportions since I forgot to type mm anyway 

Edited December 21, 2017 by hoppyman

[Jeff S]

yes, well 24x36 is technically correct as proportions since I forgot to type mm anyway

Seems ratio-nal.

 

Jeff