Good news from Wetzlar

[albireo_double]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Exactly. I tried-out a GFX last week. The interface is a hot mess, with innumerable (or at least immemorable) buttons on every surface, save for underneath. The AF has a mind of its own; it randomly picks focus points. It picks an elbow this time, some background detail next time, a collar after that. The EVF is a joke compared to the SL, so manual focus is out of the question for moving subjects.

 

It is relatively cheap for a medium format digital camera, but it's a lot of money for that particular camera.

 

I've been using the GFX for about five months now, alongside the S system. As for the AF, you have to set it up for whatever you are shooting - I find that the face recognition / eye-priority function works quite well (as long as you have enough light) and allows a higher hit rate for portraits, especially when the subject moves a bit between shots, than the S007. Alternatively, you can set the camera to a single small focus point and change it quickly with the joystick. As for the EVF, I find it absolutely usable, the usual pros and cons of EVF vs. OVF applying, of course. I also like the ability to tilt the back display and select the focus point on the touchscreen with my finger, as this allows me to keep my eyes off the viewfinder and keep following the subject while shooting (camera on tripod). The AF system could be faster for sure, but I think it is just a question of time, as the hybrid contrast/phase-detection technology needed for that is already available in other mirrorless cameras. For moving subjects, no MF camera is great but if you are good at manually focusing an MF camera on moving subjects (I am not), then the S may indeed work better. Finally, the images coming out of the GFX are of excellent quality; any differences from the S are no more than nuances that do not make or break an image. For people shots, the 4:3 aspect ratio of the GFX also usually works better for me than the 3:2 used by the S, requiring no cropping (the opposite for landscapes). I like both systems but the Fuji is no joke "cheap for a medium format digital camera" as you imply (and it has suffered from no general reliability issues to date, unlike the S). If someone here tries to make the GFX sound irrelevant, then please stop smoking funny herbs and wake up to reality. Whatever "shortcomings" the system has today will most likely be ironed out in the next version - the exception being leaf shutter lenses; if you need to shoot with flash outside, then there is no contest. Other than that, Leica will have to come up with some convincing reasons to keep the S's elevated price point. For my shooting, the GFX can do anything the S can right now, be it in the studio or standing up to my waist in snow. Upgrading the sensor to 80MP alone won't do it for me, I am afraid.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[kparseg]

Please, Sandokan - let's face facts. 

 

The entire reason the internet was developed was so that people could sit at home and insult others from the comfort and safety of their easy chair. 

Well, then please quote my phrase that all of you sensitive guys found insulting. 

[kparseg]

Exactly. I tried-out a GFX last week. The interface is a hot mess, with innumerable (or at least immemorable) buttons on every surface, save for underneath. The AF has a mind of its own; it randomly picks focus points. It picks an elbow this time, some background detail next time, a collar after that. The EVF is a joke compared to the SL, so manual focus is out of the question for moving subjects.

 

It is relatively cheap for a medium format digital camera, but it's a lot of money for that particular camera.

Well, next year Leica will release S008 at $20k and Fuji will release 100MP GFX 50s ii at $6-7k. Both manufacturers will fix some bugs, add some new features and so on. No camera is perfect. 

 

I'm surprised you guys so eagerly defend Leica's price policy. No doubt the system is fantastic but one of the biggest reasons you keep using it is that you invested a lot of money into it and don't want to sell it for cheap. If you started using MF camera now, would you pay a 2-3x price for Leica? Maybe 10% of you would, but 90% would not, and that's what Leica needs to consider releasing S008. Otherwise the system will die or will stop developing. 

[Steve Ash]

Well, next year Leica will release S008 at $20k and Fuji will release 100MP GFX 50s ii at $6-7k. Both manufacturers will fix some bugs, add some new features and so on. No camera is perfect.

 

I'm surprised you guys so eagerly defend Leica's price policy. No doubt the system is fantastic but one of the biggest reasons you keep using it is that you invested a lot of money into it and don't want to sell it for cheap. If you started using MF camera now, would you pay a 2-3x price for Leica? Maybe 10% of you would, but 90% would not, and that's what Leica needs to consider releasing S008. Otherwise the system will die or will stop developing.

You put a lot of figures into your unsubstantiated claim to give it some weight. It does not work though.

 

Gesendet von meinem SM-A320FL mit Tapatalk

[kparseg]

You put a lot of figures into your unsubstantiated claim to give it some weight. It does not work though.

 

Gesendet von meinem SM-A320FL mit Tapatalk

My numbers are based on current prices of both systems. Not sure what point you're trying to make here. 

[Alo Ako]

Otherwise the system will die or will stop developing. 

 

Please tell me: why does Phase One, more expensive than Leica, still doesn't run in bankrupt yet? Maybe there are more important features than pixel peaking only?

Edited December 3, 2017 by Alo Ako

[rosuna]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Please tell me: why does Phase One, more expensive than Leica, still doesn't run in bankrupt yet? Maybe there are more important features than pixel peaking only?

 

 

Phase One offers the higher pixel cameras on the market, and the largest sensors. Anyway, Hasselblad and Phase One may be having serious trouble in the long term because of prices. Hasselblad tries to escape from this fate with the new X system.

 

The medium format market is for aficionados and professionals, and I don't know the rate between the two, but the professional market is very different. Price competition is key because professionals make a living with photography, and they need to make their business profitable. Therefore, the features/price ratio is key for them. When you have only one camera and two markets with demands with different elasticities, and you cannot segment the market, you have a problem. Aficionados would pay more, for the brand or comfortability. Professionals would not. Leica tries to handle this offering a cheaper model (the excellent S-E) and the regular price model (the 007). 

 

So I expect a regular model (the 008), at higher prices (but similar to professional systems of the competition, Hasselblad and Phase One), and a S-E model (a slightly updated 007) a lower prices (higher but similar to the new mirrorless cameras by Fuji or Hassel). It is an optimal strategy and it is the only strategy Leica may take. 

 

They could develop a different medium format system, or a totally different camera for the professional and aficionado segments, etc. It sounds well, but it is unpractical. Too much investment for a small market.

 

The S system is great, and it also offers less expensive cameras... the only problem is (in my opinion) the price of the lenses. This system was quite small when it was presented years ago, but now it is a large system (due to the lenses), and the size of the system (camera + lenses) is another relative advantage of newer mirrorless systems. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by rosuna

[Guest VVJ]

the most expensive thing to do is to switch systems every 3 years. 

 

It really depends on how much you are invested in Leica glass...  I only have 2 S-lenses (besides Contax glass), so for me personally switching to Fuji or Hasselblad with a few lenses would be much cheaper than upgrading to a S007/8 body...

Edited December 3, 2017 by JorisV

[BernardC]

I'm surprised you guys so eagerly defend Leica's price policy. No doubt the system is fantastic but one of the biggest reasons you keep using it is that you invested a lot of money into it and don't want to sell it for cheap.

I didn't defend Leica's pricing strategy, all I did was mention that I was not at all impressed by the GFX, from a functionality standpoint. With so many randomly-dispersed buttons, it feels more like a Playstation controler than a photographic tool.

 

That being said, you can get an S for much less than people here claim. I got my S-E new from a dealer for around the same price as a GFX.

[djmay]

The products that Leica manufacturers, for example the S system, are produced to a level of precision and durability that influences the selling price. If one wants that level of precision, then there is a price to pay. If Leica, or any manufacturer, is meeting business expectations with products, then there must be people who wish to buy the product functionality at the selling price. I also would rather that the prices were lower, but what do I have to give up to get lower prices? This could mean one stop on lenses, or optical aberrations, less robust bodies, user experience, etc, which also means removing functional differentiation.

 

Leica Group also produces lenses that cost more than the entire S system combined, for other markets.

 

Jesse

Edited December 3, 2017 by djmay

[kparseg]

Please tell me: why does Phase One, more expensive than Leica, still doesn't run in bankrupt yet? Maybe there are more important features than pixel peaking only?

P1 offers a lot of sensors at various prices, so one doesn't have to pay premium for the newest and greatest. The dealer network for P1 is very good too. But P1 has the same problem as Leica, as their repairs need to be shipped to Denmark (if I remember correctly). If you live in Europe, then it isn't a big deal, obviously. 

 

By the way, Hasselblad was close to bankruptcy few years ago. Do you remember all their Sony clone cameras? But they got purchased by Chinese, released X1D at a relatively cheap price and doing better now. 

 

The bottom line of my comments is that all manufacturers produce cameras of amazing quality and it's hard to justify paying much more and getting very subtle, if any, difference, in image quality. All other variables, such as OVF/EVF, handling, menu, etc. are very subjective. 

[erlingmm]

Old men have the bad habit of quoting themselves, so here we go - I wrote this almost a year ago:

 

Let's go back to what one might assume were some of the hypotheses by Leica when they created the S system:
- DSLR format is compact and functional. The Hblad and P1 "digital backs" are reminiscent of the film days, and are not functional in a digital world
- Let's take MF out of the studio, through DSLR form factor and weather sealing
- MF gives a new dimension to photography, but 30*45mm will suffice for most
- Let's make the best OVF ever
- Chip design is more important than megapixels, 37,5 is a good compromise (50 is more, and the chosen format of the new Sony sensors, but can someone document the advantage, please?) - not excluding that S will be 50-60 mpix in its next version
- Optics is the real differentiator, let's make the best lenses for 30*45mm available
- Let's make lenses in the true Leica tradition: Top performance at open apertures, every S lens will be a "Noctilux" at full aperture
- Let's offer leaf shutter as a option built in to the lenses
- Let's open up towards other systems' and create bridges through adapters to other lenses
- <possibly more >

In my book, they were right on all assumptions. If you want to do 100 mpix and carry a P1, feel free, but swallow and justify the cost, and carry the load.

On execution, however, I agree, it could have been better, a lot better actually, where the AF issue is the elephant in the room, hopefully to be resolved soon.

Even Ming Thein, who I know and highly respect, says after working with a 50 MP (basically same sensor size as the S) Hasselblad for almost a year: " ....frankly, I’m not even sure I want the 100MP option because it’s going to make a mess of my existing focal length selections (44x33mm vs 54x40mm makes a significant difference in angle of view for a given lens). And I’ve not had the need for more either from the client side, the print side, or even personally being able to repeatedly squeeze everything out of the 50MP sensors under all conditions – I think it may not be humanly possible to consistently handhold for critical sharpness below 1/2x. "

I think Leica has been spot on with the S all the way, they just have to fix the AF problem, and possibly up the sensor to 50 MP on the S008, mainly for marketing purposes...

 

 

So, the AF problem has been resolved. In the second-hand marked there are lenses at decent prices, especially if you go for the non-CS versions (I personally have a couple of CS lenses, but a rarely use that function).

I do not know what has been revealed for djmay at Wetzlar, be it a new version of the camera, or new lenses. Personally I would expect a new S008 mid next year, with a sensor between 60 and 80 mpx, and hopefully all the existing functions (OVF, weather sealing etc.) intact.

I am extremely happy with my S007 which has just been in Wetzlar for a minor problem, and a full refurbish, getting it back "as new". I have a Canon PRO-2000 printer, and my largest print so far from the S is 210*60 cm - fantastic ! Still, I expect to upgrade for anything above 50 mpix.

Edited December 3, 2017 by erlingmm

[Herr Barnack]

Well, then please quote my phrase that all of you sensitive guys found insulting. 

 

I wasn't insulted - just trying to inject a little humor to ease the tension, that's all. 

[kparseg]

 

Old men have the bad habit of quoting themselves, so here we go - I wrote this almost a year ago:

 

Let's go back to what one might assume were some of the hypotheses by Leica when they created the S system:

- DSLR format is compact and functional. The Hblad and P1 "digital backs" are reminiscent of the film days, and are not functional in a digital world

- Let's take MF out of the studio, through DSLR form factor and weather sealing

- MF gives a new dimension to photography, but 30*45mm will suffice for most

- Let's make the best OVF ever

- Chip design is more important than megapixels, 37,5 is a good compromise (50 is more, and the chosen format of the new Sony sensors, but can someone document the advantage, please?) - not excluding that S will be 50-60 mpix in its next version

- Optics is the real differentiator, let's make the best lenses for 30*45mm available

- Let's make lenses in the true Leica tradition: Top performance at open apertures, every S lens will be a "Noctilux" at full aperture

- Let's offer leaf shutter as a option built in to the lenses

- Let's open up towards other systems' and create bridges through adapters to other lenses

- <possibly more >

 

In my book, they were right on all assumptions. If you want to do 100 mpix and carry a P1, feel free, but swallow and justify the cost, and carry the load.

 

On execution, however, I agree, it could have been better, a lot better actually, where the AF issue is the elephant in the room, hopefully to be resolved soon.

 

Even Ming Thein, who I know and highly respect, says after working with a 50 MP (basically same sensor size as the S) Hasselblad for almost a year: " ....frankly, I’m not even sure I want the 100MP option because it’s going to make a mess of my existing focal length selections (44x33mm vs 54x40mm makes a significant difference in angle of view for a given lens). And I’ve not had the need for more either from the client side, the print side, or even personally being able to repeatedly squeeze everything out of the 50MP sensors under all conditions – I think it may not be humanly possible to consistently handhold for critical sharpness below 1/2x. "

 

I think Leica has been spot on with the S all the way, they just have to fix the AF problem, and possibly up the sensor to 50 MP on the S008, mainly for marketing purposes...

 

 

So, the AF problem has been resolved. In the second-hand marked there are lenses at decent prices, especially if you go for the non-CS versions (I personally have a couple of CS lenses, but a rarely use that function).

 

I do not know what has been revealed for djmay at Wetzlar, be it a new version of the camera, or new lenses. Personally I would expect a new S008 mid next year, with a sensor between 60 and 80 mpx, and hopefully all the existing functions (OVF, weather sealing etc.) intact.

 

I am extremely happy with my S007 which has just been in Wetzlar for a minor problem, and a full refurbish, getting it back "as new". I have a Canon PRO-2000 printer, and my largest print so far from the S is 210*60 cm - fantastic ! Still, I expect to upgrade for anything above 50 mpix.

 

I don't argue that Leica S offers an amazing image quality. Of course, it does. The problem is that new S007 costs three times as much as GFX and twice as much as X1D. If Leica offered S007 at $10k new, then we'd have a totally different conversation here. 

 

I already gave an example of Leica's 100mm f2 lens, which is almost $8k. I used to have this lens and I loved it. But how can Leica charge $8k for the lens which Fuji sells at $2.5k? Drop the price and I'd be happy to buy S system as my second system. 

[pop]

.... how can Leica charge $8k for the lens which Fuji sells at $2.5k?....

 

Which lens would that be?

[albireo_double]

Which lens would that be?

Don't want to answer a question asked to somebody else, but the Fuji 110/f2.0 is very similar in performance to the Summicron-S 100/f2.0 - in my own practical experience so far, without shooting any 'brick wall' rigorous tests (perhaps there are differences in extreme situations - I just can't see any in my use). Similar sharpness from wide-open, similar (somewhat sluggish) focusing speed, pretty good resistance to flare, given the size of the front element. Haven't seen any colour fringing with either lens but haven't tortured them in that regard. Both are amazing lenses, in my view. Yes, one costs much more than the other.

Edited December 3, 2017 by albireo_double

[pop]

... the Fuji 110/f2.0 is very similar in performance to the Summicron-S 100/f2.0 ...

 

Thank you. 

[Steve Ash]

Th

My numbers are based on current prices of both systems. Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

The point is that there are quite some people who do not care about money. They simply buy what fits their needs best.

 

I just had a nice chat with a fellow from Cap Coral in our hotel in Key West. He asked me if my camera is a Leica. He was surprised to see that one of them was digital. I find out that he bought and owns one from the 80ies. He had no idea of what camera it actually. I gave him an update about the prices which he very much underestimated. He simply replied money is a non-issue. I am pretty sure he will pick-up one in his way back through Mami.

 

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[erlingmm]

Don't want to answer a question asked to somebody else, but the Fuji 110/f2.0 is very similar in performance to the Summicron-S 100/f2.0 - in my own practical experience so far, without shooting any 'brick wall' rigorous tests (perhaps there are differences in extreme situations - I just can't see any in my use). Similar sharpness from wide-open, similar (somewhat sluggish) focusing speed, pretty good resistance to flare, given the size of the front element. Haven't seen any colour fringing with either lens but haven't tortured them in that regard. Both are amazing lenses, in my view. Yes, one costs much more than the other.

 

 

That is a fairly imprecise test, I would say. I am not denying that the Fuji is a great lens, but would you trust someone who said "I can't really see the difference between camera a X and Y", without going through some more rigorous testing, MTFs etc? "I can't really see the difference between a Voigtlander and a Leica in practical use". Again, not saying that it can't be true.

Besides Leica is ALWAYS more expensive that similar lenses/cameras: The M series lenses, the new CL compared to other APS-C etc. etc. There are some tangible reasons to this, and some intangible, that people are willing to pay for, hopefully in large enough numbers that Leica can continue delivering high quality...It is tempting to draw analogies to cars, watches etc., but those analogies are so overused that I will refrain.

Edited December 3, 2017 by erlingmm

[BernardC]

Don't want to answer a question asked to somebody else, but the Fuji 110/f2.0 is very similar in performance to the Summicron-S 100/f2.0 - in my own practical experience so far, without shooting any 'brick wall' rigorous tests (perhaps there are differences in extreme situations

I would expect any modern high-quality lens to do OK on a "brick wall" test, especially when stopped-down a bit. What I find outstanding about the S lenses is their ability to hold very fine detail in high-contrast situations. I can shoot with the sun in the frame, behind my subject, and still keep see subtle skin texture and even individual back-lit hairs. Most lenses can't do that, contrast will drop to near-zero due to flare, and small details will be lost in aberrations. This, added to the fact that I can nail focus in the viewfinder, provides a high level of trust.

 

I haven't tried the Fuji lens you mention, but I know that every S lens that I've used has been outstanding. They really expand the limits of what can be photographed. In the end, that's what it's about for me: do I have confidence that the lens won't fail me optically when I see a beautiful/difficult image?