Thoughts on M10 after six months

[M11 for me]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I agree with everything except not seeing a discernible difference in comparing the 24MP files to that of 36MP or now in my case, 46MP. I see a noticeable difference in going to the large sizes several clients are asking for like the request I got an hour ago for a 30x 40 for an interior designer from a D810 in file in which I am needing to crop a vertical shot out of the horizontal file. 

 

I think 24 is the low end of where I would have to be at in order to take care of business, but my needs are professional, not hobby.

I think that some of the posts in this thread sound like briefings of the Leica Marketing department to an advertising agency. The camera transports emotions. And we love our Leica, that is tdefinitely rue. But it is mainly true because it is a Leica. Recently when shooting events in big halls with lots of people I take with me the M10 besides my Pro Canon gear. And the colors of the Canon in LR are as perfect as the ones from the M10 (maybe you pull a bit this or that ruler but you have to corrects the M10 outcome as much as you have to correct the Canon outcome). And with the M10 I have much more blured pictures than out of the fast AF and the 135mm 2.0 lens with the Canon. Further with high ISO Canon is at least as good (of course). And pictures with ISO 3200 in low light can not be „full of details“ (photography needs light).

 

I own my M10 for about 8 months and its a wonderful camera (robust, precise, simple, back to photography and beautiful). No doubt. But I am aware of some facts: When you carry a 5D MkIV with a 24-70mm 2.8 (with no bag) then you carry less weight that with the M10 with 28mm plus 50mm plus 75mm lenses (plus a bag). Therefore I take My M10 along most time with 1 lens and some times with 2. And seldom with 3. And when I need long lenses I take Canon anyway.

 

So for me the M10 is the best camera for many situations. And on top it is an accessory. In many situations I need other gear than Leica.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Blurred 135 shots are a matter of getting the technique of shooting longer lenses in the fingers. Eight months would be pushing the learning curve. I'll grant you, for pressured work, using an AF system, possibly stabilized, is a whole lot easier and reliable.

[otto.f]

Not meant to brag, but this issue is a personal thing. Some people have more steady hands than others which doesn’t make them better photographers in the sense of seeing and catching the right moments. But I have had few problems with my Tele-Elmar 135 on my M9 and even less on my M10. Peculiar but my Summilux 75 and APO Summicron 90 were more difficult on the M; also much easier on the M10

[M11 for me]

Thank you Jaap. Still last week, instead of taking 2 DSLR with 2 different lenses, I took 1 DSLR (mostly 135mm but also 70-20 or 24-70 or 50mm) plus the M10 (mostly 75mm but also 28mm). And I was quite pleased with the result (⅔ Canon and ⅓ Leica). Most interesting for myself: I gave up taking 2 DSLR. That is less bulky and easier to carry around while shooting.

[M11 for me]

Not meant to brag, but this issue is a personal thing. Some people have more steady hands than others which doesn’t make them better photographers in the sense of seeing and catching the right moments. But I have had few problems with my Tele-Elmar 135 on my M9 and even less on my M10. Peculiar but my Summilux 75 and APO Summicron 90 were more difficult on the M; also much easier on the M10

whenever I can take my time to shoot then the M10 is my choice for towns and landscapes. I must be clear beforehand that focus length from 28mm to 75mm is then enough. Plus I will have max. 2 of my 3 lenses with me at a time. And most time then Leica is my choice.

[Jeff S]

Thank you Jeff,

 

But sometimes you can't press the shutter button when you raise it to your eyes.I don't know what kind of photos you're after, but I try to capture spontaneous street shots- in this environment I feel that I've lost a good number of shots due to the camera not being ready. And having the camera always on certainly is not a solution, I've tried that: the electronic viewfinder lines are not there. They apeear when you press the shutter button, so you can't compose the shot. And the shutter lag is still there, regardless if the camera is "on" all the time

No offense, but it seems you need quicker fingers and condition yourself to regularly engage the release button. A motion sensor with camera at your side wouldn't be much different than keeping your finger on the button and always pressing before raising.

 

Maybe not ideal, or as responsive as you would like, but at least some of the issue could be addressed by adapting habits to suit.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Same here. I don’t know if the LED frames are introduced to save space and thus enabling the thinner body of the M10, but they made the M a camera that is less specifically apropriate for streetwork and journalism, which the M always was.

In april this year I did the waterfestival in ChiangMai with my M10 but I am sure that I wouldn’t have missed so many moments with my M9 instead. On paper the M10 was better for this event because of the weather seals, but the M9 would have survived also. Weather sealing of a body is a nice gadget but in practice you protect your lenses against the rain more carefully than your body, so you wouldn't go out with your Summilux75 in a sandstorm on an M10 anyway.

The LED lines were introduced with the thicker M240.

 

The M was never perfectly weather sealed (no camera is if you follow the lensrentals tear- downs), but the M10 is still better in this regard than all prior digital Ms. I appreciate any improvements. M lenses are built to close tolerances and lubricants assist for weather protection. But user precautions and common sense always apply.

 

Jeff

[Jeff S]

To elaborate, I should have written LED illuminated lines, not LED lines, as the mechanical masks remain basically the same since M8 days...

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/66999-anatomy-of-the-leica-m8-framelines/

 

Only the means to illuminate the lines has changed... from the former outside window to internal LED.

 

Jeff

[JoanP]

I am in the process of trading in my Leica Q for the M10. I have a M240P and a M246 monochrome. I enjoyed the Q but not enough to keep it as time is short and when I have the opportunity to go out shooting I always want to bring the rangefinder. It's good to read positive reviews and experiences from others that took the plunge. I have been hesitating on such an expensive purchase when I have two other rangefinders but I absolutely love the Leica M cameras. I also, have Nikon stuff and was considering the D850 but honestly, the Leica lenses are so good that one doesn't really need such a huge number of pixels to do wonderful landscape work.

[Frankie]

I'd weld my CV 40/1.4 on an M10...waiting for a la carte program where I could specify only the 35/50/90 frames-lines. 40mm FL is my Goldilocks FL lens. 

 

I'd long determined that a 85% accurate 35mm FL frame-line is near 100% if using a 40mm lens...with lens claws filed down of course [...did that minutes after receiving my brand new lens].

 

An uncluttered VF with the patch is all I want...plus a spare battery or two just in case. [...I'd even covered the small window if I don't need the patch.]

 

I was hoping there are no sudden-death reports...thankfully, so far there were few.

[otto.f]

I am in the process of trading in my Leica Q for the M10. I have a M240P and a M246 monochrome. I enjoyed the Q but not enough to keep it as time is short and when I have the opportunity to go out shooting I always want to bring the rangefinder. It's good to read positive reviews and experiences from others that took the plunge. I have been hesitating on such an expensive purchase when I have two other rangefinders but I absolutely love the Leica M cameras. I also, have Nikon stuff and was considering the D850 but honestly, the Leica lenses are so good that one doesn't really need such a huge number of pixels to do wonderful landscape work.

Why would you want an M240 + an M10 where the M240 has more value for trading in and the Q has video too?

[Jeff S]

I'd long determined that a 85% accurate 35mm FL frame-line is near 100% if using a 40mm lens...

Well, that would depend on distance to your subject as well as the M model used. The RF is only accurate at one distance, and different Ms are optimized for different distances, for instance 1m (M8, M9), 2m (M8.2, M240 and M10) or even .7m for some film Ms.

 

Jeff

[Reciprocity]

 I also, have Nikon stuff and was considering the D850 but honestly, the Leica lenses are so good that one doesn't really need such a huge number of pixels to do wonderful landscape work.

 

 

Maybe not so fast on the "one" stuff, depends on what you really desire and who your clients are, if any.

 

For example, if I put a 24mm 3.5 PC-E or 45mm 2.8 PC-E lens on that D850, use live view to peg focus exactly where I need it at the ideal aperture and then use the electronic shutter at the lowest ISO to have no movement in the camera whatsoever, the D850 completely outclasses the M-anything for landscapes.

 

I have made some great landscapes with M cameras and will continue to do so. But the D850 set up properly for serious landscape work like the example above is simply in another league.  

[Frankie]

......The RF is only accurate at one distance......

 

I meant in "frame-line" coverage...not focus... 

[M11 for me]

I am in the process of trading in my Leica Q for the M10. I have a M240P and a M246 monochrome. I enjoyed the Q but not enough to keep it as time is short and when I have the opportunity to go out shooting I always want to bring the rangefinder. It's good to read positive reviews and experiences from others that took the plunge. I have been hesitating on such an expensive purchase when I have two other rangefinders but I absolutely love the Leica M cameras. I also, have Nikon stuff and was considering the D850 but honestly, the Leica lenses are so good that one doesn't really need such a huge number of pixels to do wonderful landscape work.

 

I wonder why you would need a D850. If you do not know it yourself you probably don't need one. For my wife the 12 Mp of the iPhone X are fully enough. Further I understand from your post that you believe that the Leica lenses are good enough so that you need no Nikon any more besides Leica. I agree fully with that. I am happy that you did not say that the Leica lenses are so superior that you don't need any Nikon stuff any more. That would be a very questionable statement that you certainly did not make (btw I am a Canon boy: 5D MkIV plus a whole bunch of excellent lenses, primes and zooms. AND I HAVE AN M10)

[Jeff S]

I meant in "frame-line" coverage...not focus...

So did I. The frame lines are only accurate at one distance; otherwise the picture is tighter or wider than the lines.

 

The frame line distance optimization as I described should not be confused with the focus patch, which is set at a virtual distance of 2m for every M I mentioned. But the frame line distance optimization varies by M model as noted.

 

Jeff

[pgh]

Hi all.

The silly MP debate continues. If this is your living (for me, it is) the 24 mp of the Leica is bare minimum these days unless your photos are hitting the newsprint and that's it - and if your photos are only hitting the newsprint the only way you have a Leica is if you're married to your work, and nothing else. It is different than 36 or 42 mp. Math is not meaningless, this is a relatively low resolution sensor these days. It's an average sensor overall in terms of performance. It is adequate for many uses, but it is not in any way the paragon of current IQ standards, or even near that. Yes maybe sharper lenses get you a few inches, but the Nikon and Zeiss lenses these days are about as sharp as you like, maybe minus the 'character' (actually charming optical flaws).

 

Despite the beauty of the Leica lenses, there is a discernable difference if you ever print larger than 16x24 inches - my friends who are not photographers can tell when I ask them to look at the prints, and it is obvious to me. If you shoot landscape, this might matter. The M10 can shoot beautiful landscapes. Other cameras will make better prints with the same exposure. To some it may not matter, but if you're printing big, your D8xx or your Sony A7Rx may very well be a better option - both in terms of resolution and dynamic range. If you don't care, cool, but in my opinion Leica should offer a better, higher resolution sensor at this point. If you're shooting street, a Sony Rx1RII is hard to beat. It is more responsive, quieter, smaller, and has significantly better IQ (it is not flawless, but most people will get a higher keeper rate with it, and will have a better file to work with). I've had Leicas for about a decade now and am no slouch with the RF focus. 

 

I love my M10, but it is also a problematic camera. The 6 bit coding does not work. The Frame selector does not click in to place with lens switches. There is a sensor flaw over ISO 1600. For me, they're still not there yet, and they should be for a 7k camera. 3 significant flaws dealing with quality control is a big issue. I've never had such an issue when I paid 1/2 price or less for a Nikon or a Sony. These threads are a little strange to me...older technology isn't better in most cases. It reads like nostalgia...which is fine, but lets not kid ourselves. The Leica is a wonderful, joyful tool to use (when it works) but it hardly the best tool for any situation these days. I still make most of my photos with it, because I like using it...but when it comes to paying the bills, it's the backup option for a number of reasons.

 

I'm tempted to chuck the whole thing back and pick up an X1d for my alternative camera. Different user experience yes, but despite all the flaws of that camera there's no denying it's about the best IQ you can get without swapping your camera out for a luxury car. 

[Reciprocity]

There is a sensor flaw over ISO 1600. 

 

This is the first I have heard of this, care to shed more light on it?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

Hi all.

The silly MP debate continues. If this is your living (for me, it is) the 24 mp of the Leica is bare minimum these days unless your photos are hitting the newsprint and that's it - and if your photos are only hitting the newsprint the only way you have a Leica is if you're married to your work, and nothing else. It is different than 36 or 42 mp. Math is not meaningless, this is a relatively low resolution sensor these days. It's an average sensor overall in terms of performance. It is adequate for many uses, but it is not in any way the paragon of current IQ standards, or even near that. Yes maybe sharper lenses get you a few inches, but the Nikon and Zeiss lenses these days are about as sharp as you like, maybe minus the 'character' (actually charming optical flaws).

 

Despite the beauty of the Leica lenses, there is a discernable difference if you ever print larger than 16x24 inches - my friends who are not photographers can tell when I ask them to look at the prints, and it is obvious to me. If you shoot landscape, this might matter. The M10 can shoot beautiful landscapes. Other cameras will make better prints with the same exposure. To some it may not matter, but if you're printing big, your D8xx or your Sony A7Rx may very well be a better option - both in terms of resolution and dynamic range. If you don't care, cool, but in my opinion Leica should offer a better, higher resolution sensor at this point. If you're shooting street, a Sony Rx1RII is hard to beat. It is more responsive, quieter, smaller, and has significantly better IQ (it is not flawless, but most people will get a higher keeper rate with it, and will have a better file to work with). I've had Leicas for about a decade now and am no slouch with the RF focus. 

 

I love my M10, but it is also a problematic camera. The 6 bit coding does not work. The Frame selector does not click in to place with lens switches. There is a sensor flaw over ISO 1600. For me, they're still not there yet, and they should be for a 7k camera. 3 significant flaws dealing with quality control is a big issue. I've never had such an issue when I paid 1/2 price or less for a Nikon or a Sony. These threads are a little strange to me...older technology isn't better in most cases. It reads like nostalgia...which is fine, but lets not kid ourselves. The Leica is a wonderful, joyful tool to use (when it works) but it hardly the best tool for any situation these days. I still make most of my photos with it, because I like using it...but when it comes to paying the bills, it's the backup option for a number of reasons.

 

I'm tempted to chuck the whole thing back and pick up an X1d for my alternative camera. Different user experience yes, but despite all the flaws of that camera there's no denying it's about the best IQ you can get without swapping your camera out for a luxury car. 

Weird. These days, as they did ten years ago, the prints from my 10MP DMR (up to A3) still look as crisp and attractive as any modern camera's one. This obsession with megapixels is purely quantitative and not qualitative.

[M9reno]

My layman's impression is that the higher the megapixel count, the more apparent motion blur becomes if hand-held, so a self-defeating evolution.  Is this true?