21/2.8 Elmarit-M (Pre-ASPH) Question

[cobbu2]

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I recently acquired a nice condition 21mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M (pre-ASPH) which has all the characteristics of the later version of two that were made of this type. Specifically, it has the E60 filter size and focuses down to 0.7m. Around the base is the inscription, "Lens Made in Canada (E60)."

 

 

However, according to the Leica-Wiki site, a serial number of 3268XXX points to a manufacture date of 1983 (all were E39 and non-retrofocus versions). My lens was an ELC version, but the site has those not being made until at least 1989.

 

What do I have? Is this a early lens that was remanufactured, brought up to then-modern standards by ELC? I haven't seen any reference to this after some searching.

 

Any ideas? Thanks, Allan

[michaelwj]

You have exactly what you described in the first paragraph.

 

Serial numbers are assigned in batches based on expected production numbers, and the year refers to when the number block was created. It appears that the block was assigned in 1983 and you lens was likely made sometime after that. It looks like the serial number ends in 121, but that does not necessarily mean that it was the 121st lens produced from that batch either. Also, the wiki is not always correct.

 

Enjoy the lens, it looks like a beauty!

[cobbu2]

Thanks for the info Michael, it makes sense. Perhaps mine started out as an unused early serial number that was later re-assigned for lens batches made by ELC (in 1989?).

 

And yes thanks, the lens is excellent, just started to put it through some paces!

[luigi bertolotti]

By chance, I quickly found that no less than 4 Elmarit 21 belonging to the same batch are currently for sale : two at Red Dot  (https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/248-m-lenses)  one in Italy (http://www.newoldcamera.com/Scheda.aspx?Codice=17U4286 ), and another   at Leicashop (http://www.leicashop.com/vintage_de/leica/leica-m-lenses/elmarit-m-2-8-21mm-11134/leica-elmarit-m-11134-2-8-21mm-sku25663-18.html ) : they look identical to yours (0,7m focusing, hood attachment,  etc...) ,so don't worry... not a reworked item, by any evidence... btw, I have the feel that Canadian factory was often someway more vague than Wetzlar in assigning numbers...

[cobbu2]

Wow! Thanks Luigi... amazing that many from the same batch for sale at the same time; all are 3268xxx or 3267xxx. I purchased mine from KEH week before last in their usual near-pristine “Bargain” condition. The plot seems to thicken somewhat, it would be interesting to know the story behind this batch.

 

In the meantime, so far it’s been working nicely on my M8.

 

Cheers, Allan

[luigi bertolotti]

If you can read Italian, here http://www.wetzlar-historica-italia.it/2013obiettivi.html you can find a deep scrutiny of the first Elmarit 21 ("21mm M" - top of 2nd column)... no clues on the batch we are speaking of, but let you know how complex were the first years of this lens within the Ontario factory... no surprise that assigning exact dates of prudoction is a hard task...

[cobbu2]

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Thank you Luigi, I wish I could read Italian, I spent 2 months in Catania Sicily back in 1999, and forgot what little I learned then! I know of at least one individual (a friend of my wife) who may be able to help.

 

Despite the early turmoil at the Midland facility, their products seem exemplary! I have a really beat-up early to mid-production M4-2 that works flawlessly.

 

Cheers, Allan

[JCR33]

I think I could be your long lost cousin!

 

[cobbu2]

The lens hood is hard to find and way expensive, you’re fortunate to have it, looks great! How do you like using it?

 

I just ran across another ELC 21/2.8 here:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M6-Elmarit-M-21mm-f2-8-Wide-Angle-lens-Leica-M9-M240-and-M10-Sony-A7sII/142570434432?epid=101735213&hash=item2131dc2f80:g:RjcAAOSwsBtaAiiI

 

Again, from the same group. When it rains it pours!

[JCR33]

The lens hood is hard to find and way expensive, you’re fortunate to have it, looks great! How do you like using it?

 

I just ran across another ELC 21/2.8 here:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Leica-M6-Elmarit-M-21mm-f2-8-Wide-Angle-lens-Leica-M9-M240-and-M10-Sony-A7sII/142570434432?epid=101735213&hash=item2131dc2f80:g:RjcAAOSwsBtaAiiI

 

Again, from the same group. When it rains it pours!

 

Yeah, it was expensive to get but it does look more "complete" with it on!

 

I think the lens is great for the price. I don't have another 21 to compare it to.

 

These are some images I took with different bodies

 

M9

 

 

 

 

M240

 

 

 

SL

 

 

[adan]

3268xxx is a 1983 serial number, not 1989. Per the list in Erwin Puts' Leica Lens Compendium and also per the list in Laney's Leica Collectors Guide.

 

Seems to be some confusion here. The 21mm f/2.8 pre-ASPH began production in Canada (1980). Production was not "transferred" there - it started there.

 

Production was transferred to Germany sometime after the factory in Solms was built (1986) and the Canadian factory began to close down (which did not happen overnight).

 

If one counts cosmetics (all of these had the same optics), there were at least FOUR versions of this lens:

 

- E49 close focus (Canadian - marked LEITZ - rare-ish, about 1 year of production)

- early E60 close focus (the item the OP has - Canadian - marked LEITZ)

- medium-age E60 without close-focus (Canadian - marked LEITZ (approx 1981-1986), and

- final E60 version where the silver "Frankenstein bolts" onto which the lens hood bayonets (see post #1 image) were replaced with a bayonet flange around the front edge. I see samples of this last version marked both LEITZ and LEICA, indicating it was produced under both Canadian and Solms/Germany regimes.

 

As others have mentioned, Leitz/Leica was - casual and non-linear - in handling parts and serial numbers back then. They would have a box of one kind of part, and another box of pre-engraved rings with serial numbers, and an assembler would grab one of each and put them together, not necessariy in any order. So I can easily see someone in 1983 (or later) grabbing a 1981 lens barrel (with close focus) out of the bottom of one box, and marrying it with a 1983 front ring numbered 326xxx from another box. Especially since the 21mm was a low-sales item (compared to 50s and 35s) - it could easily take 2 years to number and sell all of the 1981 production run.

 

I have owned a couple of E49 90mm f/2s from the same era (introduced 1980 - compact version) with S/Ns dating (according to collectors' lists) from 1977. It just took that long to use up the numbers assigned in 1977.

[henning]

I recently acquired a nice condition 21mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M (pre-ASPH)

 

However, according to the Leica-Wiki site, a serial number of 3268XXX points to a manufacture date of 1983 (all were E39 and non-retrofocus versions). My lens was an ELC version, but the site has those not being made until at least 1989.

 

 

 

All 21mm Elmarits are retrofocus; the 'non-RF' in the wiki refers to non-rangefinder coupling for the closest (16-28") distance settings. Also, the very, very earliest were E49, never E39. The wiki is wrong in this respect. This version had severe vignetting and was therefore recalled and re-manufactured for the most part (or discarded). Original purchasers were sent E60 versions; these were the 'non-RF' versions of the first number of years. I had ordered and received an E49 version which I subsequently returned. Relatively few 'originals' are know to exist. I don't think an exact number can be ascertained now, but it is very likely to be less than 50 or even 25.

[adan]

Thanks, Henning - the wide front "bell" of the E60 version has always had the look of an afterthought, with a 1mm gap between the black metal rim directly holding the front piece of glass - and the "stair-steps" out to the engraved ring. One almost expects the front element to "float" in and out - although of course it does not.

 

http://www.chapterlux.com/wp-content/uploads/LUX_9268-940x730.jpg

 

I always did assume that it was engineered as a "bolt-on" to some portion of the pre-existing E49 structure, to save having to redesign/rebuild the whole barrel from scratch. And that vignetting was the root cause the change had to be made.

 

Too bad - it would have paired nicely with the contemporary redesigned 90mm Summicron E49 (later E55), and been a bit more "M-sized."

 

EDIT - still love mine, though. It will be the last Leica lens they pry from my cold dead fingers.

[cobbu2]

Nice images JCR! The angle of view is reminiscent of what the 15/4.5 CV Super-Wide Heliar does on my M8.

If you can read Italian, here http://www.wetzlar-historica-italia.it/2013obiettivi.html you can find a deep scrutiny of the first Elmarit 21 ("21mm M" - top of 2nd column)... no clues on the batch we are speaking of, but let you know how complex were the first years of this lens within the Ontario factory... no surprise that assigning exact dates of prudoction is a hard task...

I was able to use the Google online translator... very handy! Bottom line is, this lens has a very convoluted history with numerous subtle changes with the E60 version having the three sub-versions as Andy describes, thanks for the link.

 

 

All 21mm Elmarits are retrofocus; the 'non-RF' in the wiki refers to non-rangefinder coupling for the closest (16-28") distance settings. Also, the very, very earliest were E49, never E39. The wiki is wrong in this respect. This version had severe vignetting and was therefore recalled and re-manufactured for the most part (or discarded). Original purchasers were sent E60 versions; these were the 'non-RF' versions of the first number of years. I had ordered and received an E49 version which I subsequently returned. Relatively few 'originals' are know to exist. I don't think an exact number can be ascertained now, but it is very likely to be less than 50 or even 25.

Thank you Henning... in light of the references to the retrofocus motivation for the lens design, I assumed that's what Wiki was alluding to; yet another complication to the already complex history of this lens!

 

Too bad - it would have paired nicely with the contemporary redesigned 90mm Summicron E49 (later E55), and been a bit more "M-sized."

 

EDIT - still love mine, though. It will be the last Leica lens they pry from my cold dead fingers.

Probably my only critique of the lens (not so much a critique, merely an observation) is the size relative to my other M lenses... but from the examples I've seen here and what little testing I've been able to do so far, it seems an excellent performer.