Seven Months with the M8

[Frank Sprow]

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Thought I would pass along my observations after 7 months and about 10,000 exposures from 14 countries, mainly in Africa and Asia.

 

Overall - I have carefully looked over the work from this camera and that from my D2X. In large prints the M8 is very clearly superior in resolution and color. Also, it has that hard to place rangefinder "immediacy" and ease of working around people (in some of the places I photograph, people wear guns, so not irritating them is really a good idea). The lenses are great (mine are now all aspheric -- 28, 50 and 75), easy to use and change. I do not find the M8 (or any M) useful for fast moving action or telephoto use -- too difficult to focus accurately.

 

Quality - very high build quality it seems to me, though not without errors in execution. Mine got the "sudden death syndrome" and was replaced by Robert Fisk of Leica in NJ (very helpful people in my experience). My 75mm Summicron did not index the framelines correctly and was also fixed promptly in NJ. As for the IR problem, I could do without the filters most of the time, but being a lazy sort, just leave them on. I don't trust any electronic camera totally, so my M7 (which I still love) is always in the bag and has a complementary lens on board.

 

Imaging - the automatic white balance is useless. I just leave the camera on "Cloudy" outdoors and select the appropriate source indoors. Most of the time this is great, if not I just make a white balance change in Lightroom. I take DNG+JPEG most of the time, and 90% of the time am very happy with the JPEGs, even in very large prints. I use Lightroom 1.1 and Photoshop CS3 as needed.

 

Hope this is helpful. I love this camera!

[mtomalty]

Frank

 

Do you have an online presence where we can see some of these images?

 

When you are talking of very large prints what dimensions are you talking about?

 

Thanks,

Mark

[tom0511]

Frank,

just the last days I have been re-evalutaing my Foto-gear- right now I own und use Nikon (d2x and d200), mostly with zooms, Leica M and Leica R digital (R notmuch lately).

 

Now I love the M8, I also like the tones and working with primes.

 

However I still get a lot of not really accurate focused images, specially when shooting people, portraits etc. Not un-usable out of focus but just not 100% right.

 

I mean images like this:

 

I also find myself sometimes not getting the moment because I need some time to focus with the M8 and have to tell people (stay a moment, wait some more seconds...)

 

I had a 5d with a 24-105 once but sold it because I didnt like the vignetting and kind of prefered the responsiveness of the Nikons compared to the 5d.

 

Now I wonder if I you use a Nikon with really nice primes, or a Canon 5d with lets say 24/1.4, 35/1.4 and 85/1.2 and maybe 135/2.0 if this wouldnt be the better "people"-equipment. (Of course much more bulk to carry around)

 

Using the M8 I even feel that using f1.4 doesnt make much sense any more because out of 10 images you get maybe 1-2 which are really focused spot on.

 

With the d2x for example I would estimate to get 6-7 spot on.

 

Call me crazy but personally I would love a M8AF camera.

 

I use the M8 most of my cameras, but sometimes think it might be becauseI like the ergonomics so much and the feel, and that I might get more keepers if I would use the d2x more often.

 

Am I alone having some trouble with focus and shallow DOF with the M8? ( I never felt to have this problem in film + M6 times)

(I am only talking about shooting with lenses which are calibrated correct, this is not about faulty lenses)

Cheers, Tom

[alexanderruas]

I have been using my M8 with summicron 28/2 and summilux 35/1.4 for three months now. about 3000 exposures later I am very impressed by it but still keep going to my Canon 5D & Mamaiya ZD since I feel more secure when doing advertising and corporate jobs for clients.

I love the M8 and do all of my more personal work and editorial jobs that allow more creative freedom (and are also less well paid).

 

I know we have a lot of other professionals out there.... what do you think?

 

thanks,

 

alexander

[andym911]

Tom,

 

I am sort of in the same camp as you.

I am still in a mixed frame of mind on the M8, partly because of the issues you have mentioned.

My eyesight is perfect and have not had the number of misses on any other camera as I have on the M8.Many of the images are just that bit off in focus as you mention and are not snappy.I see this also on many of the images posted here, not on all, but on enough to make me believe that this is an issue.

I have read most of the threads on the back focus issues so I'm not going to rehash that but the number of shots I get that are bang on is very low compared to those taken with my M6 or the Canon stuff.

 

Shooting people now I only use the canon gear, weighs about the same and is more predicatable.

Wwhen the M8 does get it right the files are indeed superb, no comparison.I am also not excluding that I may be at fault, but on the whole the M8 experience is still a roller coaster of love and hate for me, I reach more often for the other gear than the M8 which is a bit of a dissappointment.

regards

 

Andy

[Frank Sprow]

It's good to hear these experiences and let me elaborate on mine. First, I've been using M cameras for over 20 years and the focusing has become second nature. I am always prefocused to a distance in the ballpark of my intended subject, and I take the time with each lens to have a good intuition as to how to move the focus without looking through the camera rangefinder to be pretty close before bringing it to my eye. I also use the Leica 1.25x eyepiece magnifier at all times, even with the 28mm.

 

That being said, my D2X with 28/70, 75/200, and 300mm lenses (all AFS f:2.8) still sees a good deal of use, but when I look at prints (typically 13" x 20", up to 30" x 40") the M8 stands out.

[Jamie Roberts]

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@ Andy & Tom--

 

Assuming you can focus the rangefinder alright on the M8--and I'd strongly suggest the magnifier--the shots should be tack sharp, even wide open with the Luxes.

 

In fact, I was able to zone focus a Noctilux on an M8 at night--at f1.0. Seriously, and pretty consistently too.

 

So I would say your lenses / M8 need a trip to Leica or DAG to figure out what's out of calibration. Leica should be easing off the fire-sale of hardware upgrades, so they should be able to help you out.

 

If you want to pay someone to do this, then in the US, DAG has good reputation.

 

In Canada, Kindermann Canada does exceptional work here. It cost me $75 to have my used 75 Summilux brought completely into spec (and focus)--it was off at infinity as it turns out.

 

Well worth the trouble! Now I don't have to stop down to f2.0 for a sharp shot (not that I wouldn't most of the time, but you know what I mean).

[tom0511]

Jamie,

thank you for your suggestion but the lenses I use should be fine. I have focus tested my lenses several times, my 28asph and 50lux have been adjusted by Leica allready, and the three lenses which dont focus correct are not used by me right now (35/1.4asph, Noctilux - which focuses fine at f1.4 but not at f1.0 and 135/3.4)

I nearly allways have the magnifier on my M8.

 

I am not saying that its impossible, but I just find it harder compared to AF.

 

Cheers, Tom

[Jamie Roberts]

Tom, it's interesting; I find the Canons increasingly frustrating to focus for people.

 

I'd say if some of your lenses work on the M8, and others don't, that's a pretty good indication the others are out of spec.

 

The M8 is pretty finicky for lens interaction with the RF mechanism. Once it's nailed, though, it's nailed, and the crop factor on the M8 actually makes it easier to focus some of the more usually harder-to-focus lenses.

 

If they all don't focus well--more or less--the M8 itself needs a tweak (which evidently many do out of the box).

[f/0.7]

Hi all,

 

your comments regarding focussing accuracy sound rather alarming to me as I use large apertures quite a lot.

 

I am not a M8 user yet (probably soon) but use lenses like the Canon 85/1.2 extensively at the largest aperture. In my experience it takes some technique and a good amount of patience to get tack sharp images. When I reach a hit rate of 70-80% at f/1.2 I am quite satisfied.

 

Do I need to be prepared for significantly poorer results with a M8?

 

Does this problem affect all focal length or only lenses with 50mm or more?

[marknorton]

M8 - DNG, M8 - JPEG, D2x, they're all different options for making images involving different amounts of work and yielding different quality levels.

 

Like you, I find JPEG quality out of the M8 to be acceptable for many purposes and I don't subscribe to the view that every image has to be post-processed. Life is just too short, but I do always shoot DNG+JPEG just in case, and, yes, I'd like to see Leica doing further work to improve the quality of the in-camera JPEGs.

 

I also agree that the images out of the M8 CAN be better than those from a D2X but it all depends on what I'm shooting and whether I can focus accurately. The M8 is not well suited to some of the things I shoot and that's when I use the D2x which I have found to be utterly reliable and I'm looking forward to their next generation.

 

Ultimately, I don't think trying to compare the two is especially helpful. They are different cameras for different purposes.

[jaapv]

Hi all,

 

your comments regarding focussing accuracy sound rather alarming to me as I use large apertures quite a lot.

 

I am not a M8 user yet (probably soon) but use lenses like the Canon 85/1.2 extensively at the largest aperture. In my experience it takes some technique and a good amount of patience to get tack sharp images. When I reach a hit rate of 70-80% at f/1.2 I am quite satisfied.

 

Do I need to be prepared for significantly poorer results with a M8?

 

Does this problem affect all focal length or only lenses with 50mm or more?

 

Don't worry. The M8 (and any M camera for that matter) is a camera that is eminently suitable to be used at wide apertures. The main problem here is (technical problems apart, but they are not THAT prevalent) that RF focussing takes practice and that a digital sensor is less forgiving than film. But, collectively, we are getting there;)

[tom0511]

Hi all,

 

your comments regarding focussing accuracy sound rather alarming to me as I use large apertures quite a lot.

 

I am not a M8 user yet (probably soon) but use lenses like the Canon 85/1.2 extensively at the largest aperture. In my experience it takes some technique and a good amount of patience to get tack sharp images. When I reach a hit rate of 70-80% at f/1.2 I am quite satisfied.

 

Do I need to be prepared for significantly poorer results with a M8?

 

Does this problem affect all focal length or only lenses with 50mm or more?

 

Now I think my comments sounded more negative than they are meant.

I would not say that I can not focus accurate with the M8. For example my 50/1.4 and 75/1.4 etc etc do work perfect on my M8.

All I said and meant is as soon as there is some action or movement involved I (and others seem to feel another way) find focus more difficult than a good AF.

 

Do you use continous AF often with your SLR?

Do you use off-center AF-poins with your Canon? (To avoid the problem of focus inaccurancy of focus-frame-shoot)

 

There is also another thread regarding DOF of the M8 and in the end for me the conclusion is that DOF with sensors is different compared to film (because of the crop-factor we use wider lenses and therefore DOF increases (see the large DOF of small sensor cameras) but also DOF decreases because with a smaller sensor we have to enlarge more to get the same print size. ANd then we have the thickness off film vs sensor.

 

I remember another htread where someone said that with his 5d the DOF at the same f-stop was larger than the DOF of the M8. Does pixel size have an influence? Does the AA filter have an influence?

 

In the end I personally feel that as soon as you use f1.4 (or f2 on a longer lens) for people be prepared that DOF is very shallow.

I can not even explain it but just in my case I have more images with incorrect focus when I use the M8 compared to when I use the Nikons.

My conclusion is to close the aperture more often then I did in early days, and if I use the lenses wide open I am prepared that some of the images might not be focused spot on.

 

Also I think its a must to test lenses and if you have bad luck you need to send them in for calibration (in my case three lenses have been sent in so far, 2 of them now work fine).

 

Summary:

There are several factors if we talk about focus with the M8:

1) Inacccurany because of wrong rangefinder calibration - can be adjusted

2) inaccurancy because lens needs calibration - can be adjusted

3) inaccurancy because of focus shift of a lens

4) Compared to film a different transition between sharp and unsharp areas in the image, I say "different" DOF/bokeh

5) your focus mechanism is in the middle-if your subject is on the side you have to focus-frame (which means changing the distance between subject and sensor slightly)-shoot. this is a disadvantage compared to AF where you have also focus points off center and can focus after framing

6) difficult to do something like continuos AF

7) user error

 

But dont forget that focus is just one thing and there are many others where the M8 has clear advantages.

Maybe its just so sharp that you see focus errors more clerly compared to other cameras.

[ChrisC]

..... I would say your lenses / M8 need a trip to Leica or DAG to figure out what's out of calibration. ...If you want to pay someone to do this, then in the US, DAG has good reputation. Kindermann Canada does exceptional work........

 

And in the UK? Anyone know a reliable equivalent of DAG?

 

...................Chris

[frv]

I had rented a canon 5D and a 24 1.4, a 16-35 2.8.

Took these picts. rotterdambouwt2007 - Page 1

 

I usually use less wide apertures. With the 24 1.4 I thought the lens was bad. All my picts where out of focus even thought the 5D is AF. I also make renderings using Maxwell wich is a lightsimulator using the math of real light and a camera settings. I noticed upgrading to the newer version I had set my camera settings to a very wide aperture 1.0 or 1.5. I thought the new version was bad since my renderings looked blurry with the occaisional sharp spot.

 

I had thought of this for a while and came up with the conclusion that for me apertures below 2.8 are only an option for very well set up photos and situations and not for casual photography or things moving around. Although the Leica lenses are great also for wide apertures it has to be taken into concideration that wide apertures are very hard to master and best used in shots where you can experiment witht the focus distance. Normally it does not matter so much where you focus in case of a wide angle lens but if you use a wide angle at 1.4 it becomes very important again to focus well. With my 4x5 camera I use a loupe for at least a minute or so to focus accuratly even at small apertures, so with the Leica, when things are in motion, use higher iso and smaller apertures or train your self to focus much more precise than you have been used to so far. Of course the shallow depth of field can be a very nice effect when the focal point in a shot is very sharp. If its not the shallow depth of field does not have the same effect.

 

I wish I could afford a Leica or could try it once. I am afraid that in Holland that is not possible and I will go for the Canon 5D and the 85 1.2 and a schneider 28 tiltshift for architecture. I hope thought that I can afford a Leica once just to be able to use the voigtlander 15mm or the Zeiss Hologon 16 mm.

 

PS, I have to admit that 80% of the images I see of M8 owners are out of focus. Most owners let me know that they want it that way. I tell them they could safe themselves money getting less megapixels and cheaper cameras to do that. Then I saw a man going to Tibet with a Hologon 16 mm with a fixed aperture at 8. All his photos where sharp and I started to think again about getting a Leica instead of the Canon.

[Jamie Roberts]

Hi all,

 

your comments regarding focussing accuracy sound rather alarming to me as I use large apertures quite a lot.

 

I am not a M8 user yet (probably soon) but use lenses like the Canon 85/1.2 extensively at the largest aperture. In my experience it takes some technique and a good amount of patience to get tack sharp images. When I reach a hit rate of 70-80% at f/1.2 I am quite satisfied.

 

Do I need to be prepared for significantly poorer results with a M8?

 

Does this problem affect all focal length or only lenses with 50mm or more?

 

Short answers (since I also shoot with the Canon 85 1.2L and the 50 1.2L)...

 

--you should be prepared for significantly sharper results from the M glass and the M8; though stopped down the Canons are very sharp too (especially the 85, which is sharper than the 50)

 

--if your M8 and lenses are in spec, they are vastly easier to focus quickly and accurately than either of the Canons in manual. If they're not in spec, then they need to be fixed so they are (same for Canons, BTW).

 

--I don't know what Canon body you're using, but on the 1.33 crop of the M8, the fast glass (f1.0 or f1.4) actually has more DOF than the FF Canons do You will like that a lot!

[frv]

if you look at the site with photos of the kids I linked to a post before you will see at photo 6 that the eyes of the boy on the left are out of focus and the eyes of the boy on the right are in focus. The dept of field is that shallow. There is almost no way to quickly focus making choices like that, on auto or manual. Wide apertures are simply very risky in case you have a specific focal point in mind. Take your time or take a lot of photos.

 

I just saw another photo on this forum of venice. So beautiful and with the CV15. I am still very confused what to do. I might just keep renting the Canon and get a Leica with the 15CV for the rest including traveling.

 

I am still not married so this decision might postpone my happy personal life as well ...lol. I wonder what the attraction of the M8 really is and if there is the occaisional magic spark in the files of the M8 that might be missing using the Canon 5D. Some very good photographer have bought the M8 and so some very appealing photos are shown but they might have been as well done with the 5D.......or not. Seven months M8 the answer seems still unclear....