m10 vs M246 no comparision for BW

[Guest]

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I would never try to find an rational reason for a monochrom,

if you do.... you don´t understand this cam (imo) 

 

lambda.

[otto.f]

@Nowhereman in #20:

I don't think that Daido's work is very relevant in a discussion about optimal tonal differentiations in B&W. He has a certain style which has a right on its own, and can be characterized as 'fuck the midtones', a style that lambda in this forum also practices. This is his artistic way of conveying a message/story but has nothing to do with the question of ultimate possibilities of color and monochrome digital cameras

Edited September 24, 2017 by otto.f

[Guest]

;-)

 

lambda.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Guest

[Mr Fjeld]

To me this is yet another tedious discussion where the M10 users feel it's necessary to legitimize their purchase; "look it's just as good as the M Monochrom/M246"

Which it almost is but not quite   because if you're only casually interested in Black and white photography then the M10 is more than you'll ever need.

For those who want both colours and B+W then it is the perfect Leica M. But trying to figure out similarities or differences on small computer screen is bound to be a failure. After all, you don't need much of a camera to produce wonderful colour photos for social media or computer screens. Same thing with black and white photography. I bet a seasoned photographer could do that even with my old Nikon D70S and the 28 DX lens.

 

The monochrome Leicas makes sense as it means you approach photography differently compared to a colour camera. Simple as that! And with large prints the output quality will be much more noticeable with the monochrome Leicas compared to a simple black and white conversion. Even some of my own large prints appear with a quality which is extraordinary for the 35 format.

 

The irony is that we tend to make all sorts of various discussions covering technicalities of the various Leica cameras. Which is perfectly ok and understandable as this after all is a Leica forum. But I feel we miss something because in the end it should be about photography and exchange of photographical techniques and skills. If not the apparatus becomes the central focus and reduced to more or less a large expensive pocket camera where one only pushes a button - and then end up in discussions about quality this or that. And then we haven't even started to discuss how different lenses affect the end result.

 

If you like both colours and black or white then by all means be content with your M10/M240 or M9. You don't need more anyway. However, if you really wish to engage in black and white photography then Leica has a camera for that as well, just don't assume your M10 is the same because of a few hardly indistinguishable photos on your computer screen.

 

By all means give the original poster credit for his observations as he may have a point. And the best photo threads in the camera sections are to be found in the monochrome forum 

 

Sorry for the rant!

Edited September 25, 2017 by Mr Fjeld

[Peter H]

To me this is yet another tedious discussion where the M10 users feel it's necessary to legitimize their purchase; "look it's just as good as the M Monochrom/M246"

Which it almost is but not quite   because if you're only casually interested in Black and white photography then the M10 is more than you'll ever need.

For those who want both colours and B+W then it is the perfect Leica M. But trying to figure out similarities or differences on small computer screen is bound to be a failure. After all, you don't need much of a camera to produce wonderful colour photos for social media or computer screens. Same thing with black and white photography. I bet a seasoned photographer could do that even with my old Nikon D70S and the 28 DX lens.

 

The monochrome Leicas makes sense as it means you approach photography differently compared to a colour camera. Simple as that! And with large prints the output quality will be much more noticeable with the monochrome Leicas compared to a simple black and white conversion. Even some of my own large prints appear with a quality which is extraordinary for the 35 format.

 

The irony is that we tend to make all sorts of various discussions covering technicalities of the various Leica cameras. Which is perfectly ok and understandable as this after all is a Leica forum. But I feel we miss something because in the end it should be about photography and exchange of photographical techniques and skills. If not the apparatus becomes the central focus and reduced to more or less a large expensive pocket camera where one only pushes a button - and then end up in discussions about quality this or that. And then we haven't even started to discuss how different lenses affect the end result.

 

If you like both colours and black or white then by all means be content with your M10/M240 or M9. You don't need more anyway. However, if you really wish to engage in black and white photography then Leica has a camera for that as well, just don't assume your M10 is the same because of a few hardly indistinguishable photos on your computer screen.

 

By all means give the original poster credit for his observations as he may have a point. And the best photo threads in the camera sections are to be found in the monochrome forum 

 

Sorry for the rant!

 

 

 

I'm glad you acknowledged your personal bias at the very end with the winky smiley! 

[Mr Fjeld]

I'm glad you acknowledged your personal bias at the very end with the winky smiley! 

 

On these - and other fora there can hardly be much else.

[gwelland]

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not if, just when ....

[Jager]

To me this is yet another tedious discussion where the M10 users feel it's necessary to legitimize their purchase; "look it's just as good as the M Monochrom/M246"

Which it almost is but not quite   because if you're only casually interested in Black and white photography then the M10 is more than you'll ever need.

For those who want both colours and B+W then it is the perfect Leica M. But trying to figure out similarities or differences on small computer screen is bound to be a failure. After all, you don't need much of a camera to produce wonderful colour photos for social media or computer screens. Same thing with black and white photography. I bet a seasoned photographer could do that even with my old Nikon D70S and the 28 DX lens.

 

The monochrome Leicas makes sense as it means you approach photography differently compared to a colour camera. Simple as that! And with large prints the output quality will be much more noticeable with the monochrome Leicas compared to a simple black and white conversion. Even some of my own large prints appear with a quality which is extraordinary for the 35 format.

 

The irony is that we tend to make all sorts of various discussions covering technicalities of the various Leica cameras. Which is perfectly ok and understandable as this after all is a Leica forum. But I feel we miss something because in the end it should be about photography and exchange of photographical techniques and skills. If not the apparatus becomes the central focus and reduced to more or less a large expensive pocket camera where one only pushes a button - and then end up in discussions about quality this or that. And then we haven't even started to discuss how different lenses affect the end result.

 

If you like both colours and black or white then by all means be content with your M10/M240 or M9. You don't need more anyway. However, if you really wish to engage in black and white photography then Leica has a camera for that as well, just don't assume your M10 is the same because of a few hardly indistinguishable photos on your computer screen.

 

By all means give the original poster credit for his observations as he may have a point. And the best photo threads in the camera sections are to be found in the monochrome forum 

 

Sorry for the rant!

 

+1.  Well said.

 

The human foibles inevitably at play in these is-it-as-good-as or is-it-better-than discussions are... rationalizations by the didn't-buy-it crowd that any advantages were marginal or insignificant or irrelevant... and confirmation bias by the did-buy-it crowd - after sinking all that money into something you're more likely to praise it.

 

Then you add in the technical foible described by Mr Fjeld... an image file with tens of megabytes of data, suddenly compressed to a couple hundred kilobytes, and then rendered on all manner of crappy and uncalibrated computer monitors... and there's little wonder that truth remains elusive.

 

My own simple view of the world:

 

The M8 and M9 and M240 and M10 all produce excellent, outstanding black-and-white images.  Really, they do.

The MM and M246 produce notably better black-and-white images than any of those color cameras.  It's subtle and nuanced, but it's in every shot.  It's not hard to see.

The creative experience of photographing with a black-and-white-only camera changes everything.

The technically best black-and-white images I can make don't come from any of my Leica's... but from my Hasselblad with its 50mp digital back.  Sometimes size does matter.

 

 

And, finally, the way most people today use their images - rendered on a screen, or printed not-so-large - arguing technical merit is something akin to angels dancing on the head of a pin.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Jager

[GG Media Works]

Just what to give a shout out to 'Chaemono" for taking the time to post photos of the actual comparison between these two cameras. Great photos by the way.

IMO, OP should've posted photos highlighting his views. As they say "a picture is worth a thousand words." 

[Chaemono]

Thanks. I actually think they’re kind of sh!t.

[Printmaker]

... a Bayerless sensor  will still have its advantages: No optical aberrations  by the filter, no light loss by the filter, no resolution and tonal value loss by the interpolation. And it shows...

 

 

I must agree. M10 conversions are very nice but a Monochrom capture is better. The files are incredibly malleable. You can obtain any stylistic result from Monochrom capturers. I love my M10 for color but use my Monochrom for black & white.

[RexGig0]

This thread topic helped convince me to buy a pre-owned, but almost-like-new Monochrom Type 246 this week. I am thankful for the contributions to the discussion.

 

My M10 had a Humpty-Dumpty moment; my fault, of course, and needs to go to NJ for some healing. (A Tenba wrap prevented external damage, but there is internal damage.) I had considered a non-M system camera, upon which to continue using my 50mm Summilux ASPH and 35/3.5 Summaron, with an adapter, and then perhaps selling my M10 if/when it is returned to me, but then, this beautiful Monochrom Type 246 appeared in the Leica display case at Houston Camera Exchange. At the time I had purchased my M10, I had not really liked the handling qualities of the M9 or M240/M262, but using the M10 seems to have conditioned my synapses to Leica-M cameras well enough that the Type 246 immediately felt “right.” I believe that I will be keeping my M10, when it returns. Life is good.

 

Autumn 2018 colors will be the job of my D850, but I am happily using my Summilux-M again, thankfully.

Edited September 20, 2018 by RexGig0

[budjames]

Ditch Lightroom and use Capture One Pro. All of you images, color and b&w, will immediately look better and with more details with default settings.

 

Attached photos show with my M10 and converted to b&w in Capture One Pro.

 

Regards,

Bud James

 

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

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[Jeff S]

 

Ditch Lightroom and use Capture One Pro. All of you images, color and b&w, will immediately look better and with more details with default settings

Or simply adjust LR default settings, use presets and/or individually adjust pics to taste.

 

Jeff

[Herr Barnack]

 

Ditch Lightroom and use Capture One Pro. All of you images, color and b&w, will immediately look better and with more details with default settings.

 

Attached photos show with my M10 and converted to b&w in Capture One Pro.

 

Regards,

Bud James

 

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

 

 

In my experience, discerning application of the Contrast, Clarity, Vibrance and Dehaze sliders in Lightroom will produce an equal result or extremely close to it.

[tobey bilek]

My M6 makes realistic monochrome and I do not have to scan color and convert.   

[carbon_dragon]

I have only recently bought an M10 and have hardly used it yet. But I went out in "pretend Monochrom" mode. That is I set it to DNG+Jpeg and Monochrome. So the pictures show up on the back display as monochrom and I then have monochrome images AND raws with monochrome embedded jpegs (which are overridden as soon as Aperture sees them and processes them). I've never had a Monochrom body or used one, but the jpegs were pretty darn good. I'm not an expert at black and white conversion by a long shot, but I couldn't improve them much. 

I'm not sure if that story makes me want to buy a Monochrom or if it makes me think I don't need one.😋

[thrid]

I'll take the camera with the best DR, which means the M10.

One advantage of converting from color to BW is that some programs like Truegrain take the spectral response of the film they are trying to emulate into account and obviously for that you need a color image as a starting point.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by thrid

[Belle123]

There is nothing wrong or inferior about converting an image on a color camera to BW.  Am not sure why there is this need to assure yourselves it is just as good or equal to a monochrome camera.  Well, it isn’t equal, but it might be just as good depending on your tastes or ability to see the differences.  You are not going to see the difference on these small snapshots downloaded in this forum.  Impossible.  The only way to satisfy your curiosity is to try a monochrome camera, work with the images in post processing which is a must for the 246, and then decide.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[budjames]

On 9/21/2018 at 9:45 AM, Jeff S said:

Or simply adjust LR default settings, use presets and/or individually adjust pics to taste.

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff.

i was a LR user since the pre-public beta and a Photoshop user since version 2. After trying Capture One Pro about 3 years ago while looking for a better solution for processing my Fuji X RAW files, I moved my whole workflow to C1P. About two years ago, I canceled my Adobe subscription and never looked back.

I used a variety of LR plug ins, NIK, Topaz, Alien Skin and others over the years. With C1P, I found out that I could achieve the results I wanted without any plug ins. No more paid updates anymore either.

Choices today are great. Use what works for you and I will do the same.

Regards,

Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.