Moving up to medium format

[Csacwp]

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I shoot an SL and M's, and am looking to add a MF camera to the mix for portrature and occasional landscape. With all the problems the S bodies have had, should I be looking at Pentax or the Hassy X1-D? What about buying an older hassy with an older 30-40 MP back (like a Phase One 45)? Ideally I would like to keep costs for the body and one lens to around $10,000.

[otto.f]

I'd go for this one rightaway

 

https://sinar.swiss/news/the-sinarback-s-3045-bundled-with-the-sinar-lantec/

[BernardC]

It's easy to over-estimate a camera's "unreliability" when visiting single-marque forums. Everyone who has experienced a problem, and can write in English or German, has probably posted about it here. Multiple times.

 

The S cameras have had two notable issues.

The first is the AF drive problem with lenses. Leica has a fix for that now. Lenses with this issue lose AF, but can still be manually focused.

The second issue is service turnaround times. Service times are good if you live in Germany, OK in the EU, bad in the US, and variable in the rest of the world.

 

I am not convinced that the competing medium format systems are any more reliable. Certainly none of them reach the reliability levels of a professional 35mm camera like the Canon 1Dx. That being said, I shot my S-006 in a torrential downpour last month, with no problem. All it needed was a wipedown. I don't know of other MF systems that can do that.

 

Which one should you get? It depends on your needs and preferences. The S has the advantage of working almost exactly like your SL (if you configure the buttons the same way). That makes it a lot easier to move between the two systems. The S system also feels more "integrated" and elegant than other medium format SLRs. I used to shoot Mamiya (aka PhaseOne), and it had 6 batteries in the camera body, one in the digital back, some controls on the back (like ISO), and some on the grip. It was a bit of a mess.

 

I suggest that you try-out your options and pick the one you prefer.

[pico]

I'd go for this one rightaway

 

https://sinar.swiss/news/the-sinarback-s-3045-bundled-with-the-sinar-lantec/

 

Of course, for the almost decisive ten minutes!

[Csacwp]

The more I think about it, I'm probably only interested in the S, X1-D, or the new 50mp Fuji (whatever it's called). The S is the most expensive by far. Of course, I could take this money and spend it on M glass, which is always tempting. Maybe a nice 75mm Summilux and 90 apo for portraits, though I guess they won't look as good as medium format from any brand.

[Jeff S]

Lenses with this issue lose AF, but can still be manually focused.

 

Examples here where that was not the case....total failure.

 

Jeff

[djmay]

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It's easy to over-estimate a camera's "unreliability" when visiting single-marque forums. Everyone who has experienced a problem, and can write in English or German, has probably posted about it here. Multiple times.

 

The S cameras have had two notable issues.

The first is the AF drive problem with lenses. Leica has a fix for that now. Lenses with this issue lose AF, but can still be manually focused.

The second issue is service turnaround times. Service times are good if you live in Germany, OK in the EU, bad in the US, and variable in the rest of the world.

 

I am not convinced that the competing medium format systems are any more reliable. Certainly none of them reach the reliability levels of a professional 35mm camera like the Canon 1Dx. That being said, I shot my S-006 in a torrential downpour last month, with no problem. All it needed was a wipedown. I don't know of other MF systems that can do that.

 

Which one should you get? It depends on your needs and preferences. The S has the advantage of working almost exactly like your SL (if you configure the buttons the same way). That makes it a lot easier to move between the two systems. The S system also feels more "integrated" and elegant than other medium format SLRs. I used to shoot Mamiya (aka PhaseOne), and it had 6 batteries in the camera body, one in the digital back, some controls on the back (like ISO), and some on the grip. It was a bit of a mess.

 

I suggest that you try-out your options and pick the one you prefer.

I also have used the S in rain with high winds. The below photo was shot in rain and wind so strong that I had to keep one hand on the tripod at all times. Standing still was also difficult from the force of the wind.

 

Every time I remove dust spots from the image at 100%, I am delighted with the image quality from this system. I emphasize that it is the system; camera, sensor, firmware, lenses, etc. that has hooked me.

 

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Jesse

[djmay]

Csacwp, most S owners that I know, here on the forum and elsewhere, are open about their experiences, good and bad. I have read statements and evaluations by people who do not own the S, that are very puzzling since they have little or no direct experience. Unfortunately, the only way to know is to ask explicitly "do you or did you ever own the S." It is similar to when people tell me that they are afraid to visit the U.S. because of all the crime (I live in Switzerland).

 

I am not minimizing the terrible experiences that some people have had. I have had my share, but it was worked out.

 

Jesse

[Csacwp]

I'm aware of all the S problems and would probably be most comfortable with a 007, but it looks like only a preowned 006 would be in my price range once you factor in a lens. I'd be OK with that if they didn't have sensor corrosion issues.

[BernardC]

I'm probably only interested in the S, X1-D, or the new 50mp Fuji (whatever it's called). The S is the most expensive by far.

 

Given your stated $10,000 budget, I assume you are looking at a used S (006) or S2, in which case the three systems are similarly priced.

 

The X1-D is intriguing because of its small size and light weight. Good for landscapes, and for carrying around all day.

I don't see the point of the Fuji, based on my own preferences. It's as big as the S, and looks a lot less ergonomic. Others have different needs.

 

Some advice: your budget will probably lead you to use adapted lenses, at least at first. Given a choice, you should get native lenses at the wide end (24-60mm), even if that means using older medium format lenses at the long end.

Vintage (film-era) medium format wides don't work very well on digital backs. They aren't all that sharp, and they are prone to flare. Longer (100mm+) vintage lenses can be quite good, with a decent lens hood. I use my old Hasselblad 110 and 150 on the S all the time, and they compare well with native lenses, only falling apart in extreme contrast and backlight. The vintage wides that I've used  are more fussy. You need to be mindful of stray light, and choose your composition so that you don't have elements outside of the central area that need to be critically sharp. It's workable, but tedious.

 

The other issue is workflow. You already use other Leicas, so the S will fit right in; same software, same colour. Hasselblad and Phaseone have their own software, which means a steeper learning curve. Not sure what software people use with the Fuji camera.

[Csacwp]

How did you fit the older Zeiss Hassy lenses to your S?

 

As far as image software goes, I switched a year ago from lightroom to Capture One and have never looked back.

[BernardC]

How did you fit the older Zeiss Hassy lenses to your S?

 

I started-out with the Kipon adapter. I've since acquired a Leica adapter. The Leica adapter is better, but the Kipon works just fine. I prefer to use one adapter per lens, since I also use native S lenses and need to change lenses quickly for event work.

Sharing one adapter between multiple lenses would be fine for slower-paced work like landscape and portrait.

[Deliberate1]

Csacwp, I went from the M9 to the S006 almost two years ago and could not be more satisfied. And I did it on the cheap, relatively speaking. The Leica certified body came from Leica Miami for about $6300. Indistinguishable from new and with a three year warranty. Got the 70mm from Leica in NY for about $2700, if memory serves. It was a demo unit which means it was fondled longingly by some admirers at a show. Later I added the 35mm from EBay in mint shape for $2400, I think. But the best investment was the Contax to leica adapter for $1000, followed by the Zeiss for Contax 120 (macro), 210 and 35 for about $2000 - total. And they are stellar performers.

I did suffer a motor failure with the 35mm. Less than a month ago I sent it to Leica Miami which forwarded it to Wetzlar despite the fact that I did not buy it from them. The repaired lens will be at my office tomorrow. No complaints with turn around time.

Irrespective of the money I spent or saved, I could not be happier with this system. I respect but do not baby my gear. I have it to use it. And I do. And the more I shoot It, the more I am impressed by it. The svelt body feels perfect in the hand and exudes quality, like the interior of my Audi S5. No frills. No bangles. No BS. Just a very well designed and executed device. Once you lift it to your eye for the first time and view the world through the OVF, you will think you are looking at a movie screen. No EVF I know of can do that. Only shortcoming is the limited low light capabilities. Images, at least in color, fail for me above 400. We all have our limits. Devices are no different. Use your SL for those subjects.

If you decide to invest in the S I strongly suggest that you establish a relationship with Leica dealer who will intercede on your behalf with the mothership when the time comes.And it will. Josh at leica Miami has been helpful beyond measure. While they were making hurricane preparations late last week he took the time to post my lens which had just arrived from Germany. Enough said.

Finally, buying into this system will entitle you to admission into this online forum which is amusing, cantankerous, generous and infinitely helpful.

David

[BernardC]

As far as image software goes, I switched a year ago from lightroom to Capture One and have never looked back.

Unfortunately, Capture One does not officially support competing medium format systems. That limits them to Phase One, Leaf, and Mamiya-branded Leaf backs.

 

People have workarounds to use Capture One with Leica S, Hasselblad and Fuji GFX files. No guarantee that these will continue to work in the future.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I shoot an SL and M's, and am looking to add a MF camera to the mix for portrature and occasional landscape. With all the problems the S bodies have had, should I be looking at Pentax or the Hassy X1-D? What about buying an older hassy with an older 30-40 MP back (like a Phase One 45)? Ideally I would like to keep costs for the body and one lens to around $10,000.

 

I have the S007, S2, X1D and 645Z. I can compare them directly.

 

Pentax 645Z:

 

Pros: Wide lens selection including zooms. Great long exposure capabilities. No mandatory LENR. Multiple AF points (centre clustered though). Tilty screen. Great mirror lock up implementation. Battery life is amazing. Cheap as chips compared to the other two, especially as many lenses are plentiful used. Dual tripod mounts.

 

Cons: Large and relatively heavy. Ginormous wide zoom (although optically stunning). Some older lenses have a lot of CA so choose carefully. Older lenses really need to be stopped down to be great (not an issue for me). Pentax flash and no leaf lenses.

 

Hasselblad X1D:

 

Pros: Tiny. Light. Focus anywhere on screen. Leaf shutters. Great interface. Great long exposures. No mandatory LENR. Remote control via iPhone app. Electronic shutter. Stunning handling and ergonomics. Nikon TTL.

 

Cons: Firmware still feels beta. No playback in EVF. No live histogram yet. Slooooooow startup. 

 

S007:

 

Pros: Long battery life. Share S lenses with SL. Best lenses optically AND speed wise. (except zoom which is a pig) Similar setup and operation to SL. Best OVF. Leaf and focal plane lenses.

 

Cons: Single AF point. Mandatory LENR. max 2 min exposure time at base ISO and 8 seconds at high ISO. Stupidly expensive.

 

Things that are personal preference:

 

EVF versus OVF.

Interface and handling.

 

For landscapes I am shooting the X1D. The LENR is a deal breaker for me with the S. I also favour mirrorless over a DSLR. Despite the resolution differences IQ isn't that different. Leica's lenses are better and the Sony sensor is better. It's a wash until Leica upgrade the camera. My X1D is slowly replacing the Pentax purely due to size, weight and the EVF. The Pentax makes unreal files. If it weren't for the EVF I'd keep the Pentax.

 

I love the S and it's lenses. It gets used in studio and for people. I also use the lenses on the SL. *If* the S008 is mirrorless and they sort out the long exposure/LENR issues I'd like to use that for my landscapes due to the incredible glass. But for now i split between the X1D and S007. The S2 I keep as a backup, as I use the S for work.

 

Gordon

[Daedalus2000]

I have the S007, S2, X1D and 645Z. I can compare them directly.

 

Pentax 645Z:

 

Pros: Wide lens selection including zooms. Great long exposure capabilities. No mandatory LENR. Multiple AF points (centre clustered though). Tilty screen. Great mirror lock up implementation. Battery life is amazing. Cheap as chips compared to the other two, especially as many lenses are plentiful used. Dual tripod mounts.

 

Cons: Large and relatively heavy. Ginormous wide zoom (although optically stunning). Some older lenses have a lot of CA so choose carefully. Older lenses really need to be stopped down to be great (not an issue for me). Pentax flash and no leaf lenses.

 

Hasselblad X1D:

 

Pros: Tiny. Light. Focus anywhere on screen. Leaf shutters. Great interface. Great long exposures. No mandatory LENR. Remote control via iPhone app. Electronic shutter. Stunning handling and ergonomics. Nikon TTL.

 

Cons: Firmware still feels beta. No playback in EVF. No live histogram yet. Slooooooow startup. 

 

S007:

 

Pros: Long battery life. Share S lenses with SL. Best lenses optically AND speed wise. (except zoom which is a pig) Similar setup and operation to SL. Best OVF. Leaf and focal plane lenses.

 

Cons: Single AF point. Mandatory LENR. max 2 min exposure time at base ISO and 8 seconds at high ISO. Stupidly expensive.

 

Things that are personal preference:

 

EVF versus OVF.

Interface and handling.

 

For landscapes I am shooting the X1D. The LENR is a deal breaker for me with the S. I also favour mirrorless over a DSLR. Despite the resolution differences IQ isn't that different. Leica's lenses are better and the Sony sensor is better. It's a wash until Leica upgrade the camera. My X1D is slowly replacing the Pentax purely due to size, weight and the EVF. The Pentax makes unreal files. If it weren't for the EVF I'd keep the Pentax.

 

I love the S and it's lenses. It gets used in studio and for people. I also use the lenses on the SL. *If* the S008 is mirrorless and they sort out the long exposure/LENR issues I'd like to use that for my landscapes due to the incredible glass. But for now i split between the X1D and S007. The S2 I keep as a backup, as I use the S for work.

 

Gordon

 

Thank you for this valuable analysis. I asked a similar question in another thread regarding upgrade from the S2 (I consider the Fuji GFX as well) and your analysis helps a lot. I do not do long exposures and I focus mainly on portraits etc.

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

I have had both the S006 and the S007. I still have the S007 and will not part with this camera unless the XTL3 has a significant advantage over the S007. You can Buy S lenses for +/- $3000 second hand so if you bought a S70mm for example  for 3k you might be able to buy a second hand S007 for the remaining 7k.............unfortunately Leica S gear doesn't hold any value, but then why would they................there a camera (luxury toy)

 

I cant vouch for the Fuji but I did demo the X1D and it was sh!te............slow, buggie and just not something I would not buy.

 

neil

[Photon42]

Any C or F Hasselblad with a digital back is a different shooting experience, than with any of the three other contenders you mention. The CFV-50c is a proper modern back (identical to X1D) and integrates wonderfully with the legacy bodies both functionality wise and from the design angle. The user interface however is really, really different. Shooting portrait orientation handheld is only for the very dedicated. It shows that these machines have been made for ground glass composition with a waist level finder.

 

I tried the Fuji and the X1D in a shop and on a fair. What can I say - the Fuji was the more compelling technology with a proper shutter installed, the Hasselblad was the slicker machine. Both viewfinders were uninspiring to me (not up to the Q or the SL). The Hasselblad has only a central (leaf) shutter at this point. Maybe there will be an update for an electronic shutter, but this is really just my thinking.

 

Believe it or not - the S to me is still the best all-round MF system with lots of options of lenses to adapt. Get an S2 and invest in some lenses. The S2s won't go much more down in value.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

 The Hasselblad has only a central (leaf) shutter at this point. Maybe there will be an update for an electronic shutter, but this is really just my thinking.

 

 

The X1D got an electronic shutter via a firmware upgrade a couple of weeks ago.....

 

Gordon

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[Photon42]

The X1D got an electronic shutter via a firmware upgrade a couple of weeks ago.....

 

Gordon

 

 

Thanks, Gordon. I was not aware of it. Here is a link to an article of Ming Thein about the firmware update and the limitations.