mickjazz Posted August 30, 2017 Share #1 Posted August 30, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) You've probably been over this a hundred times but I didn't find it. So pardons in advance. A few days ago I saw what was supposedly Henri CB's 1st leica - a 1929 Leica I number 20562 or 20362. Camera in apparently chrome finish. I looked around and there are few such cameras. An ebay seller has one 42xxx. Asked if it was original, didn't know. Originally I thought 1st chrome finish Leica was 1e 114xxx until I realized I own a leica ii that's sn 99xxx from 32. There was another thread from 2007 re the HCB chrome leica 1 in the HCB Foundation Museum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 30, 2017 Posted August 30, 2017 Hi mickjazz, Take a look here Leica I A in chrome finish. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
UliWer Posted August 30, 2017 Share #2 Posted August 30, 2017 It was very common that original Leicas were changed in later years - keeping their original numbers. Heavy usage might have caused HCB to have his camera repaired at times when black paint was not used any more by Leitz, so they changed it to chrome. On the photo of the camera I know the lens is collapsed. so you cannot see if the original fixed lens was changed to the later screw mount to use differnt lenses. This could also be an occasion for changing the outward appearance - or even rebuild the whole body, but always keeping the number. Therefore you also find IIIa models with very early serial numbers - they are "upgraded" models from early A models. Since chroming technology was not available at the early times of the Leica you would not expect a chromed outlier in a series all black. Repairing - or even rebuilding - seems to be the most convincing assumption in this case. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 30, 2017 Share #3 Posted August 30, 2017 The camera would not have been produced as a chrome model. It is not unknown for early I Model As to have lost almost all of their paint. I have one very early one, which I suspect was used in the tropics (because of some markings on the very early ETRIN case that came with it), which is completely brass on top. I have another one that was covered with nickel plating presumably after the paint had been removed. I have also seen a video of a photographer using a I Model A which is is silver like HCB's, but it looked like it had been repaired many times and the photographer was still using it in the last twenty years or so. There was a story going around that HCB may have buried or hidden his cameras during WW II which may have led to the loss of the original lacquer, which may have in turn led to him having it chromed. I have never seen a chrome version of the II Model D from 1932. According to the 'Blue Book' the first chrome IIs were produced in 1933 after the first chrome IIIs. The earliest chrome IIIs were in 'bright chrome'. I have one with an SN commencing with 116. The 'bright chrome' IIIs were produced for a short period and were then replaced by models with what we know as 'normal chrome'. I have never seen a Model II with 'bright chrome'. I believe that you can take it that any chrome finish on a production Model I or Model II produced before 1933 is not original and was put on in or after 1933. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share #4 Posted August 31, 2017 Yeah I agree with and further I think my 32 leica ii was also rechromed or it's the bright chrome whatever that is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share #5 Posted August 31, 2017 Chrome 1932 Leica ii Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276304-leica-i-a-in-chrome-finish/?do=findComment&comment=3348537'>More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted August 31, 2017 Share #6 Posted August 31, 2017 A most interesting topic. The availability of chrome plated cameras from Leitz was no doubt quite a challenging engineering and logistic activity, but the public demand was clear. As far as I know, nearly all Leica cameras were black lacquer painted until the offering of the gold plated Luxus cameras of 1929/30. Leitz may have gained some knowledge in cases where the thickness of the plating over brass could affect tolerances/clearances, etc. Chrome plating is not a simple process, and some of the early cameras that are referred to as "bright chrome" may be a result of process modifications. A pure flat chrome is highly reflective and may not be attractive or appropriate for camera surfaces. I have heard that Leitz actually altered the brass surface with light blasting with soft media to eventually give the" textured" chrome surface we came to like. I don't think there were any original Model A leicas chrome plated by the factory, even though a few (40) were made after 1932 up to 1935. The high demand for chrome resulted in customer/dealer requests to refinish earlier black paint cameras. Many cameras were "converted" to chrome. The first photo below shows a few of those I have. The cameras are 12638, a Model I converted to a chrome Model II, with small speed dial: 48484 a Model I also converted to Model II small dial: 69739 a Model Ic; 71171 a Model Ic. Because of the small speed dial I believe these replatings were after about 1933. The last camera is 95501, I also think this started life as a black Model II but was returned for chroming. It has the large speed dial, so the replating is earlier. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Now, factory records show 5 Model Ic cameras (99294,99301,99349, 99754 and 99755) were made originally in chrome. But I think this may be in error as the exact same cameras are also listed as original chrome Model II's. Perhaps they were started internally as model Ic but finished as model II. I have recorded 6 of these five digit chrome Model II cameras.Camera 99301 has been observed as a chrome Model II. By 1933, the Model II was available in chrome. I have no evidence of any chrome cameras that were made in 1932. Of interest to me, are the original chrome Model II cameras that have 5 digit serial numbers, that is below 100000. Some 116 serials in 6 lots are listed in Band I as chrome Model II cameras. They are between 99132 and 99800. The next photo shows one of those cameras. No. 99332 and two chrome cameras from the 108xxx lot. The 99332 camera is from the chrome lot 99326-99350. It has the original large speed dial and "lavatory" or recessed area under the dial. It does have an ugly flash sync on the top. The camera in the first post 99909 is not listed in the records of chrome lots. The other two cameras 108166 and 108584 are from a later chrome lots. A 106201-300 chrome lot is listed but I have never recorded one. I mention the 108xxx cameras, as they have appeared in many references and are sometimes "bright" chrome. Camera 108166 was upgraded after 1952 to an internal factory flash sync and the engraving Gmbh. The final Model II in chrome is shown below. Serial 102459, factory records show this started life as a black Standard. Likely the rangefinder and the chrome finish were added later. But still with the large speed dial. So, the exact deliver of chrome cameras is not completely clear. Were the bright chrome 108xxx cameras made before the 99xxx cameras? It does seem clear to me the there were several lots of Model II cameras factory made with serial numbers below 100000. Any chrome camera with a serial below 99132, must be thought to have been converted until additional facts come forth. Any comments or serial data very welcome. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Now, factory records show 5 Model Ic cameras (99294,99301,99349, 99754 and 99755) were made originally in chrome. But I think this may be in error as the exact same cameras are also listed as original chrome Model II's. Perhaps they were started internally as model Ic but finished as model II. I have recorded 6 of these five digit chrome Model II cameras.Camera 99301 has been observed as a chrome Model II. By 1933, the Model II was available in chrome. I have no evidence of any chrome cameras that were made in 1932. Of interest to me, are the original chrome Model II cameras that have 5 digit serial numbers, that is below 100000. Some 116 serials in 6 lots are listed in Band I as chrome Model II cameras. They are between 99132 and 99800. The next photo shows one of those cameras. No. 99332 and two chrome cameras from the 108xxx lot. The 99332 camera is from the chrome lot 99326-99350. It has the original large speed dial and "lavatory" or recessed area under the dial. It does have an ugly flash sync on the top. The camera in the first post 99909 is not listed in the records of chrome lots. The other two cameras 108166 and 108584 are from a later chrome lots. A 106201-300 chrome lot is listed but I have never recorded one. I mention the 108xxx cameras, as they have appeared in many references and are sometimes "bright" chrome. Camera 108166 was upgraded after 1952 to an internal factory flash sync and the engraving Gmbh. The final Model II in chrome is shown below. Serial 102459, factory records show this started life as a black Standard. Likely the rangefinder and the chrome finish were added later. But still with the large speed dial. So, the exact deliver of chrome cameras is not completely clear. Were the bright chrome 108xxx cameras made before the 99xxx cameras? It does seem clear to me the there were several lots of Model II cameras factory made with serial numbers below 100000. Any chrome camera with a serial below 99132, must be thought to have been converted until additional facts come forth. Any comments or serial data very welcome. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276304-leica-i-a-in-chrome-finish/?do=findComment&comment=3348574'>More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted August 31, 2017 Share #7 Posted August 31, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) In addition, I really hope someone can add clarification to this subject. When converting Model Ia and Ic cameras to chrome without adding the rangefinder, the issue of the serial engraving depth might be factor as the paint cameras had a significant porting of the bismuth or woods metal contained by the engraving in the paint. As chrome cameras had paint filled serials, it would not surprise me if the engraving macjhine points were even different. The model Ic's that I have that were chromed without adding the rangefinder are of very light engraving. There were probably other important changes for chrome conversions. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share #8 Posted August 31, 2017 Alan impressive knowledge as well the replated cameras. I have another chromed ody sn about 63xxx. It was shiny chrome plated top and bottom but kept the nickel knobs, black screws and eye rings. It's cute. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276304-leica-i-a-in-chrome-finish/?do=findComment&comment=3348597'>More sharing options...
jerzy Posted August 31, 2017 Share #9 Posted August 31, 2017 The model Ic's that I have that were chromed without adding the rangefinder are of very light engraving. simmilar to other topics related to LTMs as well this one has a bit of mystery and uncertainity. According to the lists found on the web the first II in chrome was 111551. However other source (Wagner, Vidom Nr 62) is quoting 99132 as the first one available in shiny chrome and this confirms the findings of Alan. I strongly believe that the camera which mickjazz belongs to the batch of early chrom II. 99909 is listed as model II and has all features of early II like lavatory seat, speed dial of 15,5mm, DRP in the lowest line so there is no indication that it has been ever conversted from model I. Alan, you are correct with depth of engraving on black painted cameras with bismuth fillings. Pictute belows shows such engraving where both paint and mertal filling is gone. Cameras in black with white paint engravings or chrome have deeper engraving so that it can take white or black paint to fill in engravings. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Depth of engraving is related to the technological process used to fill in engravings with metal. All parts to be engraved were painted black and then engraved. It was enough that engraving cut through the black paint and just scratched the brass underneath to remove oxidated brass layer on the surface, bare brass underneath allowed for melted metal to fill in the engravings. This is as well how can you determine if chrome plating has been applied on the previously black cameras by third party - it is practically impossible to deeper existing scratching/engraving on black cameras, you would need to polish it and re-engrave completely and without the tools which Leitz had it was not possible in the qulity of Leitz. Here is an example of such camera - was upgraded by Leitz to black II, later on rechromed by third party. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Depth of engraving is related to the technological process used to fill in engravings with metal. All parts to be engraved were painted black and then engraved. It was enough that engraving cut through the black paint and just scratched the brass underneath to remove oxidated brass layer on the surface, bare brass underneath allowed for melted metal to fill in the engravings. This is as well how can you determine if chrome plating has been applied on the previously black cameras by third party - it is practically impossible to deeper existing scratching/engraving on black cameras, you would need to polish it and re-engrave completely and without the tools which Leitz had it was not possible in the qulity of Leitz. Here is an example of such camera - was upgraded by Leitz to black II, later on rechromed by third party. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276304-leica-i-a-in-chrome-finish/?do=findComment&comment=3348610'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted August 31, 2017 Share #10 Posted August 31, 2017 Thanks Mickjazz, Alan and Jerzy. Based upon what is shown above, it seems that Leica may have produced a small batch of IIs with chrome with SNs in the 99 range. Whether these were produced in late 1932 or early 1933 is not clear, but probably irrelevant at this stage. The 'bright' chrome shown above is not near as fine as that on my III with SN starting with 116 which looks like it came out of the factory yesterday. Perhaps the SN 99 IIs with chrome were a 'trial' for the full scale introduction with the III. I have looked through my collection of catalogues from that period to see what evidence exists. The catalogues deal with new factory production and do not contain anything (except for a small piece from 1938) about 'upgrades' which is a pity. I would certainly like to see material about factory upgrade programmes issued during that period in a general context and not just in connection with chrome plating. My catalogues are for the UK market and I have given prices below in pounds, shillings and pence to illustrate that back then, unlike today, chrome models were considered more desirable than the black lacquer models. 1931 Catalogue Shows I Model A and I Model C both in black lacquer with some interchangeable lenses including Hektor, 3.5cm and 13.5 cm. The camera could not be bought as a body only. At least one lens had to be bought. 'Dull gilt' camera covered in lizard skin with Elmar, probably I Model A. Note called 'Lelux' or 'Lessalux' and not 'Luxus' Camera in black lacquer covered in calf skin with Elmar and called 'Leanekalb' No prices are given in the version of the 1931 catalogue which I have. 1933 Catalogue Model II in black enamel with Elmar called 'Lykup' price 22.0.0 Model II in chrome with Elmar called 'Lykupchrom' price 23.4.0 Model III in black enamel with Summar called 'Lysum' price 33.13.0 Model III in chrome with Summar called 'Lysumchrom' price 34.17.0 1936 Catalogue Model II with black enamel with Elmar called 'Aboot' price 26.10.0 Model II in chrome with Elmar called 'Aboot chrom' price 27.17.0 Model III in black enamel called 'Acoos' price 30.10.0 Model III in chrome with Elmar called 'Acoos chrom' price 31.16.0 Model IIIa ( in chrome only) with Elmar called 'Adkoo' price 34.0.0 1938 Catalogue Shows only chrome plated cameras and the IIIa and IIIb also in chrome. There are, interestingly, prices for converting a Model II to either a III (8.9.0) and IIIa (10.14.0). Conversion to a IIIb was not possible. While the catalogue gives an impression of an 'all chrome' policy about that time, we do know that black lacquer with chrome fittings cameras were produced at about that time. I have a black III with chrome fittings with an SN commencing with 249 from 1937. I have not mentioned the Standard in order to simplify the story. It too has a similar black and chrome story and journey. I am not sure what my trawl through the catalogues really tells us. It certainly shows that the chrome models were considered more desirable at that time and that there was a production policy which eventually led to the black models being phased out as part of standard production. It seems that chrome production really ramped up in 1933, but there may well have been 'trial batches' manufactured in late 1932. There were other developments as well which anticipated the Model III, such as the introduction of the 7O'Clock infinity stop. There is no evidence of a production chrome I Model A, which still leaves us with the unanswered mystery of HCB's camera, of course. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted August 31, 2017 Author Share #11 Posted August 31, 2017 I wonder if HCB's children or people associated with the foundation/museum have more info on his 1a. I'll contact them. Thanks everyone for the insights and background information on the first chrome leicas. M Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted September 1, 2017 Share #12 Posted September 1, 2017 Here is this camera : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276304-leica-i-a-in-chrome-finish/?do=findComment&comment=3349374'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted September 1, 2017 Share #13 Posted September 1, 2017 Thanks JC. Just a few thoughts. I have always thought that this does not quite look like chrome plating. It looks to me like a type of nickel plating with, perhaps, a variation in the usual mix giving it less of a yellow tone. I have some nickel plated 'furniture' on one of my I model As which looks somewhat like this, less yellow than on my other examples of this model. The other thing is the green on parts of the top plate edge and on the 'hockey stick'. This would seem to speak of a camera that had been outdoors for some time, perhaps in a damp environment. It would be nice to have a close up look or even to handle the camera, but the chances of that must be zero! William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted September 1, 2017 Author Share #14 Posted September 1, 2017 The photo image taken through a glass window i guess. I like it and wouldn't mind having it -- and not because Henri used it. The Leica 1 was not a camera I previously enjoyed. It seemed lacking without the rf and only 1 lens. But lately I like it more and more. I have 5 of them. The 4 digit I leave at home (I should use it; what's the point of a camera that outlives you ?) and use a 3 year newer camera, also a close focus. I'm taking it to China with me next week. Cheers m 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted September 1, 2017 Share #15 Posted September 1, 2017 The photo image taken through a glass window i guess. I like it and wouldn't mind having it -- and not because Henri used it. The Leica 1 was not a camera I previously enjoyed. It seemed lacking without the rf and only 1 lens. But lately I like it more and more. I have 5 of them. The 4 digit I leave at home (I should use it; what's the point of a camera that outlives you ?) and use a 3 year newer camera, also a close focus. I'm taking it to China with me next week. Cheers m I use mine only occasionally. They are really collector's items. I have six of them now, two with 4 digit SNs and the rest with 5 digits. One of mine is a close focus model with the focus scale in feet. There were 10 variants of the I Model A with Elmar lens and one bit of fun you can have is in identifying the variants in your collection. There is a book by Angela von Einem which is out of print (as far as I know) and is only available in German which identifies the features of the different variants. On the camera body you have items like the shutter button with and without dimple and then the more familiar model with a collar and also the feathered arrows on the winding dials plus other features. There are also many variations over time in the Elmars on the I Model A which are also identified in von Einem's book. Some people, even seasoned collectors, would find this more than a little surprising. Then there are the various leather cases like the ETRIN and some other very rare ones like the ESMIT. You also have the various rangefinders, filters and other accessories for the I Model A. It is along with the the M3 and the II Model D, the most significant Leica ever and if it had not been successful, we would not have digital Ms to play around with today. As for Henri's I Model A, if this one is genuine, I suspect that it would fetch at least a 7 figure sum if it came up at auction. It would not be technically a 'better' camera than any of yours, but 'provenance' reigns in the collecting game. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickjazz Posted September 1, 2017 Author Share #16 Posted September 1, 2017 (edited) No kidding on the price. I enjoy ia - or 1e for that matter - because of the simplicity. It takes me to the time I used my Mom's Kodak instamatic 126 with nothing to set. I have simpler cameras than a 1a: Olympus Pen EE half frame eg but the 1a not only feels better in my hands but is more cool. Edited September 1, 2017 by mickjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted September 2, 2017 Share #17 Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) I do not like the engravings on camera shown by JC, it is not Leitz quality. Compare for ex "s" and "e" with engravings on regular black IA Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! simmilarly the digits, on chrome IA they are somehow "unfinished", look at the "2" or "5" And in addition the rewind lever is black, I would expect it ti be chrome as well. So for me it looks like being chromed by third party, being re-engraved Edited September 2, 2017 by jerzy Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! simmilarly the digits, on chrome IA they are somehow "unfinished", look at the "2" or "5" And in addition the rewind lever is black, I would expect it ti be chrome as well. So for me it looks like being chromed by third party, being re-engraved ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/276304-leica-i-a-in-chrome-finish/?do=findComment&comment=3350147'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted September 2, 2017 Share #18 Posted September 2, 2017 The black rewind lever is probably from the original or is a replacement. Perhaps the plating (whatever it might be), perhaps by a non Leitz technician, had some kind of an effect on the engraving. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted September 2, 2017 Share #19 Posted September 2, 2017 Thanks JC. Just a few thoughts. I have always thought that this does not quite look like chrome plating. It looks to me like a type of nickel plating with, perhaps, a variation in the usual mix giving it less of a yellow tone. I have some nickel plated 'furniture' on one of my I model As which looks somewhat like this, less yellow than on my other examples of this model. The other thing is the green on parts of the top plate edge and on the 'hockey stick'. This would seem to speak of a camera that had been outdoors for some time, perhaps in a damp environment. It would be nice to have a close up look or even to handle the camera, but the chances of that must be zero! William William, I have some Leica Standard with different aspects about the chrome plating ( no nickel plating only ) some are shinning with a like little sanding aspect, some have dull aspect but uniform, some have a little brassing on commands and at the rear due to metalic frame of spectacles weared by the users. The "vert de gris" on the HBC camera is certainly due to sweat on the first finger HBC has travelled a lot and sometimes in tropic latitudes. The camera is in a show case at the HBC Foundation museum 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iphoenix Posted September 5, 2017 Share #20 Posted September 5, 2017 Thanks people, it's amazing how much information there is available in this forum. You have answered a query I've had for ages about my 1c s/no.9153. I just couldn't figure out why the s/no. should be so faint. A few details about mine: It's been standardised, with a nickel plated lens mount. The lens it came with was a nickel plated "no number" Elmar 50. The quality of top and bottom plate plating though, can best be described as rough anodising, or virtually a galvanised finish (just starting to peel where the left hand touches the top plate). The knobs though, are much smoother and seem to be of better quality plating, similar to the body of my 3C. I won't give the full detail, but the baseplate shows a Munich 90 name and address hand scribed within. Regards, David Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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