I burnt through my shutter cloth :(

[wattsy]

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I seem to recall that Keith Mercer had a problem with a bent pin inside the shutter release of his M7 which was possibly caused by a soft release being pushed against it. I think it's the pin that stops the release in the 'off' position.

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[wlaidlaw]

Ian, 

 

I know people have had problems with the M7 shutter release where they have been using a remote release with the Motor-M. The shutter button kicks back quite noticeably with the motor, especially on setting 2 for continuous and if there is no give on a remote shutter release pin, that can cause strain to the mechanism. I have seen a recommendation on RFF, that if you were going to use a remote release with the Motor-M (can't think of any circumstances why I would but maybe stop motion photography), to use a pneumatic release, where there is "give" on the release pin due to air pressure being the activation medium. 

 

Wilson

 

PS I have seen cheap soft releases which did not have the correct taper on the thread and might poke too far into the shutter button. I am using one of Tim Isaac's nice quality early type soft releases on the M7 for M shutter releases up to and including the M9. The MatchTechnical type 2 on my M240 has a slightly different taper angle but I think may also fit the earlier buttons as well. I know that the Nikon remote release I have fits all my M's from 1967 onwards, whereas my Leica remote release only fits up to the M9 and will not screw in securely or straight onto the M240. 

Edited September 3, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[wattsy]

I know people have had problems with the M7 shutter release where they have been using a remote release with the Motor-M....

 

PS I have seen cheap soft releases which did not have the correct taper on the thread and might poke too far into the shutter button.

 

 

Wilson, this is the thread I was referring to. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/217863-m7-shutter-release-damage-by-pressure/

[wlaidlaw]

Thanks Ian, I will bear that in mind when putting my M7 into a bag or packing in luggage. However I suspect Keith's feeling that this may also have been a Friday/Monday camera may be nearer the truth. My original M7 was one of those and having been through a year of pain with a Monday/Friday Leicaflex SL2, I gave up far quicker with my first M7 and changed it for a Contax G2, where I could also get the lenses at cost, as a Contax beta tester. One of the faults on my original M7 was that the camera would not turn off, with the switch collar stuck firmly in the on position. I never used that camera with a soft release, so it rather looks as if this is a weak area. In that my "new" M7 is a 2002 vintage and has obviously been back to the factory, as it has the optical DX reader, I am hoping that all its faults have been ironed out. 

 

Wilson

[lb1800]

So, I've had the quote back from Leica Germany for replacing the burnt shutter curtain on the M-A....

 

Good news:  New shutter curtain = £19. Pretty Good!

 

But.....labour, VAT, Leica London's service fee(!), Tuesday afternoon tax, Brexit fee, Leica "more money than sense" surcharge, etc ..... £877. Total £896!

 

In fairness, the labour charge includes other stuff, namely "adjust shutter brake, adjust micro switch, adjust shutter times, adjust auto collimation, adjust friction, adjust range finder, clean range finder, adjustment of all parts."

 

I'm actually just about ok with this amount. To get the camera back in (I hope) tip top condition will be pretty great.

Edited September 6, 2017 by lb1800

[wattsy]

But.....labour, VAT, Leica London's service fee(!), Tuesday afternoon tax, Brexit fee, Leica "more money than sense" surcharge, etc ..... £877. Total £896!

 

I'm actually just about ok with this amount. To get the camera back in (I hope) tip top condition will be pretty great.

 

 

A curtain replacement should really be about £200 tops, including parts and labour. £896 is ludicrous though I'm not altogether surprised – Leica have ramped up their service charges massively in the last year or so, presumably to counterbalance the money they are haemorrhaging having to replace M9 sensors. I think you should reconsider being "just about ok with this amount" because this cynical gouging makes a bit of a mockery of the idea of owning these cameras long term if fairly routine service costs are going to cost in the order of a grand each time.

Edited September 6, 2017 by wattsy

[wlaidlaw]

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That is the about same price as Alan Starkie charged me for a total strip down to the last nut and bolt then rebuild of a Combat Graflex, making new parts from scratch and having to learn as he went along from the military service manual, as nobody else in the world services these old military 70mm film motor drive cameras nowadays. That price included stripping down, cleaning and servicing all three lenses. I think Leica's price is a bit too high but for peace of mind, it might just be worth it. How long a warranty to they give on their repairs? 

 

Wilson

[lincoln_m]

lb1800,

£896 WTF I hope that is really in Euros I.e. €896 but even so that's £300 more than Leica were warning us.

 

I thought you get a 5 year passport (accidentally damage included) or is it back down to 2 years now?

 

Can't you just ask to have the shutter curtain replaced tested and adjusted? All the lubes and rangefinder adjustments should still be OK otherwise my 14 year old MP and 52 year old M2 wouldn't work at all if the M body is so delicate, but I'm sure it's more solid than that.

 

Perhaps I won't be asking Leica to service my M2 in future after all.

 

Lincoln

[lb1800]

Ian/Wilson/Lincoln - thanks for your comments.

 

Is it cynical exploitation? Possibly, but it's also pretty much the same as one would pay to have a luxury brand mechanical watch serviced.

 

Length of warranty on repairs? I don't know - I guess it's 12 months. The camera is out of warranty. It's a 2/3 year old body which I bought used.

 

Could I just have the shutter work done? I expect so and I suppose that would shave a few hundred off (maybe £300?). But, I'm still paying the Leica London service fee (in fact it turns out I pay that even if I decline ALL the work) and the camera still has to be dismantled so the labour costs will still be pretty high. So, whilst I'm going through the inconvenience of having the camera our of action for however many weeks it seems worthwhile getting all the work done. I don't think the camera NEEDS all the work but it'll be nice to have it done. (I have a second (newer) M-A body which does feel a little tighter and more precise than the body we are discussing).

 

Euros/GBP  - no, the quote is in GBP. So, recent currency rate movements have probably added 15/20%. Which does at least partly answer the price increases that Ian referred to. 

 

And of course, in fairness to Leica - it was me who burnt the shutter and created the need for this work. I haven't explored it (and probably won't) but I could possibly claim it under my domestic accidental damage policy for household contents.

 

So, overall...I need to have the shutter fixed and I would prefer Leica to do it. So the only discretionary question in my mind is whether to get the additional work done....and it seems like for £300 or so I might as well.

[wattsy]

I don't think the camera NEEDS all the work but it'll be nice to have it done. (I have a second (newer) M-A body which does feel a little tighter and more precise than the body we are discussing).

 

 

A 3 year old Leica film camera should be nothing in wear terms – these cameras traditionally should be able to handle many thousands of rolls of film before a major service is required. If your other M-A is "tighter and more precise" it is most likely because these cameras are just not built very well in the first place. I should know, I own two M-A bodies, one of which (fortunately in warranty) needs service and I have owned a third that had to be replaced. I also had an MP that had to be substantially rebuilt because of problems it had from new.

 

 

 

Is it cynical exploitation? Possibly, but it's also pretty much the same as one would pay to have a luxury brand mechanical watch serviced.

 

Sadly, I think that's at least partly the point. It wasn't that long ago that Leica UK was a just a maker of fine cameras, optics and binoculars and had a bland office in Milton Keynes. The retail side of selling their products was handled by the network of independent dealers. Now the company wants to play the luxury lifestyle game it has all the overhead of swanky company owned shops in Mayfair and The City and presumably has to gouge it's customers from all corners to pay for it.

Edited September 7, 2017 by wattsy

[wattsy]

I thought you get a 5 year passport (accidentally damage included) or is it back down to 2 years now?

 

 

Passport warranty was completely dropped a few years ago. It is now just 2 years normal warranty.

 

Just as a point of comparison, Aperture are quoting £200 exc VAT (£250 for metered camera) for a replacement shutter curtain.

Edited September 7, 2017 by wattsy

[almoore]

If your other M-A is "tighter and more precise" it is most likely because these cameras are just not built very well in the first place....

 

Every film M I've ever used - M2s, 4s, 6s - has had a different feel, and they tend to keep that feel over time. Wind on tension and shutter release point varies so much that the traditional 'what's the best M' question is always impossible to answer. You never know until you pick one up. 

 

When it comes to gouging on repairs, unless my memory is badly failing me, this is a fairly new phenomenon. The apparent luxury goods repair tax is a really bad vibe on a camera as simple and utilitarian as a film M. It would be interesting to know if stores in places with rents as high as Mayfair and Hong Kong actually make a profit - a trait in the fashion industry is to consider losses in high cost locations as being an advertising expense. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by almoore

[lb1800]

I know, I know.... there's an odour of being ripped off about it....but so too is there about paying the thick end of £3,000 for a 50mm f1.4 lens. Owning Leicas is not a value-for-money affair.  

 

I'm not very mechanical and perhaps I have the wrong analogy but as far as tightening up and servicing a 2 year old camera is concerned., I'm thinking of it in comparison to cars. Expensive and well made cars often need things tightening up after the first X thousand miles driving....doesn't mean they are badly made, it's just the nature of mechanical parts that after some initial use and interaction with each other they need a little adjusting, lubricating, whatever. Is that not a valid comparison?

 

Re using Aperture. Thanks for the quote Ian. Again, using the car analogy....when my shiny brand new (ish) car needs a service, I'll typically take it back to the specialist garage for that brand. After some years,  I'll stop paying their excessive charges and take it to the guy at the end of the road. I'm not yet ready to take this camera to the guy at the end of the road.

 

TTFN 

Edited September 7, 2017 by lb1800

[wlaidlaw]

I just had the curtains on my grandfather's Model II replaced and a CLA for €180. Seems to have been properly done if very slowly (over three months) by Objectif 06 in Nice, France. 

 

Wilson

 

PS This 1935 camera had been sitting on a shelf dead for over 20 years since I recovered it from my uncle, who had in turn recovered it from the dustbin, where my mother had deposited it. I have felt guilty for years about it and it gave me an opportunity to test out my local Leica repairer in Nice. I quite understand the idea that with a newer camera/car you want manufacturers' agents stamps in the service book. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by wlaidlaw

[jip]

I agree that the M7 should have had a shutter similar to that of the M8/M9/M240 etc. 

 

Manual as in no auto wind/cocking but with a blade shutter with at least 1/2000 or 1/4000... it's the one reason I prefer my Leica R8/R9 with 1/8000 over any Leica M for professional shooting situations. 

[wattsy]

Every film M I've ever used - M2s, 4s, 6s - has had a different feel, and they tend to keep that feel over time. Wind on tension and shutter release point varies so much that the traditional 'what's the best M' question is always impossible to answer. You never know until you pick one up. 

 

 

Yes, that's true and certainly in more recent years some of the cameras can feel a bit rough and shoddy compared with others. I once had an M7 that I could squeeze vertically about a millimetre or so on one side. I was told it was "normal".  My point was really that one camera feeling less "tight" shouldn't indicate that it requires a major service when it has probably only had a few dozen rolls of film through it.

 

When it comes to gouging on repairs, unless my memory is badly failing me, this is a fairly new phenomenon. The apparent luxury goods repair tax is a really bad vibe on a camera as simple and utilitarian as a film M. It would be interesting to know if stores in places with rents as high as Mayfair and Hong Kong actually make a profit - a trait in the fashion industry is to consider losses in high cost locations as being an advertising expense. 

 

 

I think it is new. I was told last year by the service guy at Leica UK that Wetzlar had introduced a policy where any repair or service request would involve a mandatory CLA at around £600 or so. There are a number of anecdotal stories in this forum that back that up – I seem to recall someone needing either the frame selector lever or rewind switch replacing and being quoted for a price around £700 including a full CLA. I believe that sense eventually prevailed in that case and the bill was finally agreed at around £150.

 

[almoore]

I was told last year by the service guy at Leica UK that Wetzlar had introduced a policy where any repair or service request would involve a mandatory CLA at around £600 or so. There are a number of anecdotal stories in this forum that back that up...

There's a strange sense of unreality that's clouded Leica ownership in recent times - at least if this forum is representative - and I guess it's understandable that the company are attempting to tap into it. There are obviously people who find Leica's recent aggressiveness on pricing reassuring, as shown by the howls of outrage when the SL price dropped and 'devalued their investments'. Right now, over on the TL forum there's a guy claiming that the 35mm Summilux can't be considered anything other than a 'consumer level' lens due to its apparently modest $2,500 price tag. It's fantasy land. 

 

It's possible that this is a good long-term strategy for Leica, but in the event of another financial crash they might find themselves regretting the loss of their more traditional user base. 

Edited September 7, 2017 by almoore

[wattsy]

I know, I know.... there's an odour of being ripped off about it....but so too is there about paying the thick end of £3,000 for a 50mm f1.4 lens. Owning Leicas is not a value-for-money affair.  

 

Re using Aperture. Thanks for the quote Ian. Again, using the car analogy....when my shiny brand new (ish) car needs a service, I'll typically take it back to the specialist garage for that brand. After some years,  I'll stop paying their excessive charges and take it to the guy at the end of the road. I'm not yet ready to take this camera to the guy at the end of the road.

 

I'm not sure Aperture are exactly the "guy at the end of the road". I don't whether you are new to Leica and have bought into the whole luxury lifestyle thing but this idea that Leica is not a "value-for-money" affair is not an age old truism. Even now, I don't think the core M products are unreasonably priced (£3000 for a 50 Summilux is comparable to the price charged by other manufacturers for their "top" lenses and has the benefit of being considerably smaller than those) but I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of having the piss taken out of me if I ask Leica to undertake even the most straightforward of repairs. Having never owned a luxury watch, I'll have to ask: is it the norm for a very basic repair or a general service to cost the equivalent of a third or more of the value of the product?

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[almoore]

Having never owned a luxury watch, I'll have to ask: is it the norm for a very basic repair or a general service to cost the equivalent of a third or more of the value of the product?

 

Like they say, if you have to ask...

[wattsy]

Like they say, if you have to ask...

 

 

That does seem to be a vibe that has been permeating this forum in recent years.

Edited September 7, 2017 by wattsy