ECohen Posted July 7, 2017 Share #161 Posted July 7, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I dunno about this "short lifespan" stuff. I have electronic and servo motor things that are thirty-forty years old, still working perfectly. Much better than mechanical mechanisms of the same age, that all require disassembly, cleaning, and maintenance to work as they did when new. ALL of my mechanical cameras more than 20 years old have required some service, and always to the mechanical bits; and all of my old Leica mount lenses too. I'll let you know how the SL and its lenses fare when they hit 25 years old, if I live that long. Technology advancing. I had a Nikon D200 I bought for $1600. (body only) great camera for its day when I sold it I was lucky to get $125. I cant remember exactly how many years later 5 maybe? I'm sure the SL will still be a great camera in 25years ....but its resale will be nothing . I cant even dream of where camera technology will be in 25years ? Whats an SD card?........ How will you read it ? Anybody know whats considered an Antique in the computer world? 100 years for Furniture 25 years for Cars ....Computers ??? Hmmmm .......maybe the SL will have Antique value as Leica's first Mirrorless camera ? ....better keep the box Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 7, 2017 Posted July 7, 2017 Hi ECohen, Take a look here SL Price Reduction. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LD_50 Posted July 7, 2017 Share #162 Posted July 7, 2017 Consider that we're having this discussion on a forum for a brand new camera system and the most common critique is missing modern features (36+ mp, faster and more reliable AF, more native lenses) and I see why the longevity of these systems should not dictate the business decisions made by Leica. It is certainly nice to use old lenses on new equipment and maybe even old camera bodies with old lenses, but I haven't found myself really doing that very often. My current kit consists of equipment that's all been built or introduced in the last 15 years. I could of course use my M lenses with an old film body, and I could buy very old (25+ years) M or R lenses (or similar vintage Nikkors for that matter) to use on the SL but the performance and quality of the modern stuff is just good enough that I don't bother. Even with my Nikon kit I found myself gravitating to newer equipment because the performance (and weight advantage) justified the cost for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 7, 2017 Share #163 Posted July 7, 2017 I'm with Godfrey. In the film days, I used my Nikons til they failed. It's taken me some time to get to the SL, and it's a keeper. If prior experience is anything to go by, improvements to the SL will be iterative. To be honest, I won't be interested. The SL does everything I need and more. I have M lenses from a 1948 Summitar to the 28 Summilux and the two SL zooms. I am waiting for the 28 Summaron to arrive, and will be interested in an SL macro and a wide prime. Otherwise, new lenses will likely gather dust. I will be interested in what's announced on Monday, but only because I can see a use for a compact camera ... Edit - if Leica Rumours is correct, I doubt I'll be interested in the TL2 as it has the same EVF. The blackout is the reason I sold my T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 7, 2017 Share #164 Posted July 7, 2017 (...) Edit - if Leica Rumours is correct, I doubt I'll be interested in the TL2 as it has the same EVF. The blackout is the reason I sold my T. I think it quite likely that the blackout is caused by the T and not by the EVF. So, if the expected camera seems attractive, an evaluation should take the possibility into account that the blackout might be gone. But then, it might still happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 7, 2017 Share #165 Posted July 7, 2017 I think it quite likely that the blackout is caused by the T and not by the EVF. So, if the expected camera seems attractive, an evaluation should take the possibility into account that the blackout might be gone. But then, it might still happen. Even if they get rid of the blackout it still remains an eyesore and (when attached to the body) very awkward to store in a camera bag. Otherwise the camera sounds very good... Give this camera a good built-in EVF and a fast easy way (other than touch AF) to change AF and it becomes Leica's best selling product blowing Fuji out of the water.. Now the excellent T-lenses remain mostly wasted on a extremely stylish and minimalist but hardly efficient body, such a missed opportunity... Very off topic I do realize... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted July 7, 2017 Share #166 Posted July 7, 2017 Technology advancing. I had a Nikon D200 I bought for $1600. (body only) great camera for its day when I sold it I was lucky to get $125. I cant remember exactly how many years later 5 maybe? I'm sure the SL will still be a great camera in 25years ....but its resale will be nothing . I cant even dream of where camera technology will be in 25years ? ... Who would care what an SL's resale value is in 25 years, or even 10 years, if they've been using it all that time and getting its real value out of it? Really now... ! The only time resale value is important is when you buy new cameras faster than you get any value out of using them. Or if you're pursuing cameras purely as collectibles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted July 8, 2017 Share #167 Posted July 8, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Even if they get rid of the blackout it still remains an eyesore and (when attached to the body) very awkward to store in a camera bag. Otherwise the camera sounds very good... Give this camera a good built-in EVF and a fast easy way (other than touch AF) to change AF and it becomes Leica's best selling product blowing Fuji out of the water.. Now the excellent T-lenses remain mostly wasted on a extremely stylish and minimalist but hardly efficient body, such a missed opportunity... Very off topic I do realize... The only way the TL2 "blows Fuji out of the water" is if it comes in at a much lower price. You basically described the SL with an APSC sensor. A TL2 with those features, the corresponding high price, and the existing high cost lenses won't make a dent in Fuji's sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveBK Posted July 8, 2017 Share #168 Posted July 8, 2017 I think it quite likely that the blackout is caused by the T and not by the EVF. So, if the expected camera seems attractive, an evaluation should take the possibility into account that the blackout might be gone. But then, it might still happen. X 113 had the same EVF and the same blackout M10 has the same EVF and blackout I'd be really underwhelmed if they are using the same meh EVF again. It was not top of the line in 2014 when they first started using it, we are now 3 years on and it is very middling. How many units of the thing did they order that they continue shoving it on every camera since.. Its a $575 accessory which is probably worse than the EVF built in to $600 Panasonic cameras... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 8, 2017 Share #169 Posted July 8, 2017 The only way the TL2 "blows Fuji out of the water" is if it comes in at a much lower price. You basically described the SL with an APSC sensor. A TL2 with those features, the corresponding high price, and the existing high cost lenses won't make a dent in Fuji's sales. A mini SL with APS-C sensor and lighter lenses would potentially also take the place of my SL itself which is probably the main reason why Leica is not doing it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted July 8, 2017 Share #170 Posted July 8, 2017 A mini SL with APS-C sensor and lighter lenses would potentially also take the place of my SL itself which is probably the main reason why Leica is not doing it... Maybe. Fuji seems to put exactly the same sensor in different cameras. Sure they're in the middle of a 16-24MP change over but that's generally how they go. All the newly released cameras have the same 24MP Xtrans sensor. You buy based on camera design. Sony seems to put a different sensor in exactly the same camera. That's the A7 series. But they also don't have any issues with a 35mm and APSC sensor of the same resolution. So you buy based mainly on sensor capabilities. Photos now indicate the TL2 will be the same basic design as the current model. Personally I'd prefer an X-Vario copy but either way I wouldn't trade the extra capabilities of a SL for a TL. Even the same "features" don't mean the same capabilities. The SL2 might get 4K off the whole sensor. Or raw video capture. Or..... So different companies have different strategies. Leica seem to still be sorting themselves out. The L mount is 2.5 years old and the SL is 18 months in. It seems that Leica are seeing where those camera sit in the scheme of things. I get the feeling Leica is putting some energy into re-aligning their products within their range. I'm starting to think the SL price reduction is strategic rather than reactive. Which would be a good thing. The M system is the hook. It's unique, despite the copycats. The SL links the rest of the range (and the M to a certain extent) and Leica have now placed it in a different position. I still can't help but think the new SL price is making room for a new S body that's a bit cheaper than the S007. A mirrorless version. I think we'll end up with... TL2 -24MP SL -24MP SL2 -36ish MP S008 mirrorless - 50MP S008 OVF - 50 MP. Well, the last one isn't likely but I think it's a good idea. Leica can't compete in production against anyone else so there's no point trying to compete on sales volume. They need to make their range work as a group as well as individual products. I think they see the SL as the centre of that and that's why they've made the price adjustment. Slowly but surely Leica's new direction is coming to where they want it to be. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 9, 2017 Share #171 Posted July 9, 2017 Maybe. Fuji seems to put exactly the same sensor in different cameras. Sure they're in the middle of a 16-24MP change over but that's generally how they go. All the newly released cameras have the same 24MP Xtrans sensor. You buy based on camera design. Sony seems to put a different sensor in exactly the same camera. That's the A7 series. But they also don't have any issues with a 35mm and APSC sensor of the same resolution. So you buy based mainly on sensor capabilities. Photos now indicate the TL2 will be the same basic design as the current model. Personally I'd prefer an X-Vario copy but either way I wouldn't trade the extra capabilities of a SL for a TL. Even the same "features" don't mean the same capabilities. The SL2 might get 4K off the whole sensor. Or raw video capture. Or..... So different companies have different strategies. Leica seem to still be sorting themselves out. The L mount is 2.5 years old and the SL is 18 months in. It seems that Leica are seeing where those camera sit in the scheme of things. I get the feeling Leica is putting some energy into re-aligning their products within their range. I'm starting to think the SL price reduction is strategic rather than reactive. Which would be a good thing. The M system is the hook. It's unique, despite the copycats. The SL links the rest of the range (and the M to a certain extent) and Leica have now placed it in a different position. I still can't help but think the new SL price is making room for a new S body that's a bit cheaper than the S007. A mirrorless version. I think we'll end up with... TL2 -24MP SL -24MP SL2 -36ish MP S008 mirrorless - 50MP S008 OVF - 50 MP. Well, the last one isn't likely but I think it's a good idea. Leica can't compete in production against anyone else so there's no point trying to compete on sales volume. They need to make their range work as a group as well as individual products. I think they see the SL as the centre of that and that's why they've made the price adjustment. Slowly but surely Leica's new direction is coming to where they want it to be. Gordon I would actually be very surprised if the SL2 was 36MP. Leica only changes specs when they absolutely have to, eg. when the previous sensor is no longer available (TL2) or when the competition has gotten so far ahead that something does need to change... About the TL, I have absolutely no idea what their vision is for that camera... Sometimes they say that it will morph into a mobile device (although nothing in the latest body seems to point to that), they don't seem to be overly concerned with putting a more performant and professional body (a la Fuji or Sony) out there but they sure as hell are charging professional prices for their lenses ($3K for an APS-C lens, fault le faire...). I might pick up one or I might not and sell the T plus the 4 lenses that I own altogether... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 9, 2017 Share #172 Posted July 9, 2017 you mean like a controller for the SL and S ? http://www.red.com/hydrogen Sometimes they say that it will morph into a mobile device (although nothing in the latest body seems to point to that) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECohen Posted July 9, 2017 Share #173 Posted July 9, 2017 A mini SL with APS-C sensor and lighter lenses would potentially also take the place of my SL itself which is probably the main reason why Leica is not doing it... Less size and weight would be great but what about Hi ISO? APS wont preform as well....Hi ISO performance is a big plus for full frame cameras. ....either way Leica wouldn't make an SL with and APS sensor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 9, 2017 Share #174 Posted July 9, 2017 you mean like a controller for the SL and S ? http://www.red.com/hydrogen No, not really, it came from this interview with Kaltner: https://www.pressreader.com/thailand/bangkok-post/20170127/282531543120403 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladik Posted July 9, 2017 Share #175 Posted July 9, 2017 Would it be possible that the Leica reduced the cost of SL to make it tempting to people like me who am waiting for M10 camera that is in a short supply? But perhaps not given that I would be using M lenses only on SL having to buy adapters plus extra weight and bulk. I will stick to my original decision and wait for M10. Meantime I am enjoying Fujifilm X-Pro2 with Fuji lens and M lenses via Fuji to M adapter, great setup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted July 9, 2017 Share #176 Posted July 9, 2017 Less size and weight would be great but what about Hi ISO? APS wont preform as well....Hi ISO performance is a big plus for full frame cameras. ....either way Leica wouldn't make an SL with and APS sensor I had the Fuji X-Pro1 and X-T1 at a certain point. The high ISO performance was pretty good I thought, not as good as the SL or the Q, but better than the current T. The EVF is a huge part of what makes the Q and the SL successful... I don't understand why they are continuing to cripple the T by sticking with the Visoflex which was already outdated 3 years ago. It is just ridiculous and makes no sense whatsoever as far as I am concerned. As always IMHO and YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 9, 2017 Share #177 Posted July 9, 2017 i think by "mobile device" he means "small size portable camera with loads of features" No, not really, it came from this interview with Kaltner: https://www.pressreader.com/thailand/bangkok-post/20170127/282531543120403 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted July 9, 2017 Share #178 Posted July 9, 2017 I had the Fuji X-Pro1 and X-T1 at a certain point. The high ISO performance was pretty good I thought, not as good as the SL or the Q, but better than the current T. The EVF is a huge part of what makes the Q and the SL successful... I don't understand why they are continuing to cripple the T by sticking with the Visoflex which was already outdated 3 years ago. It is just ridiculous and makes no sense whatsoever as far as I am concerned. As always IMHO and YMMV. How is it outdated? Same resolution as Fuji XT2 and nearly the same as the brand new A9 and it has a GPS built in. Only the SL and GFX have noticeably more resolution. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 9, 2017 Share #179 Posted July 9, 2017 ... Leica seem to still be sorting themselves out. The L mount is 2.5 years old and the SL is 18 months in. It seems that Leica are seeing where those camera sit in the scheme of things. I get the feeling Leica is putting some energy into re-aligning their products within their range. I'm starting to think the SL price reduction is strategic rather than reactive. Which would be a good thing. The M system is the hook. It's unique, despite the copycats. The SL links the rest of the range (and the M to a certain extent) and Leica have now placed it in a different position. I still can't help but think the new SL price is making room for a new S body that's a bit cheaper than the S007. A mirrorless version. I think we'll end up with... TL2 -24MP SL -24MP SL2 -36ish MP S008 mirrorless - 50MP S008 OVF - 50 MP. Well, the last one isn't likely but I think it's a good idea. ... I agree. Leica has invested so much in the L mount, it is surely their strategy for the future of the company; and it's compatible with M mount and S mount lenses. One thing that occurs to me is that when companies invest a lot in new tech - sensors and electronic viewfinders - it makes commercial sense to maximise their use. With sensors, perhaps they are camera specific, and Leica seems to have made a point of making incremental improvements from the M(240) to the Q, the SL then the M10. What's surprising is that they seem to be sourced from different suppliers (perhaps not, who knows, but the R&D cost on each won't be small) - it would be very interesting to know how they differ. I would expect Leica to use their EVF from the Sl in other cameras - it's the best in the market right now, and it is a clear advantage for them. I'm sure there is another camera somewhere in development using that EVF. The other thing that's interesting (and here I'm showing my ignorance) is that I understood that Leica liked the pixel pitch (?) or perhaps pixels per mm of the 24MP full frame and 36MP for the S; so why is 24MP on APS-C now acceptable? If there has been a shift, either in Leica or in technology that makes increased pixel density acceptable, will we see an increase in MP in the M & SL full frame cameras and the S? Not a driver for me, but it did occur to me ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 9, 2017 Share #180 Posted July 9, 2017 ,,,,What's surprising is that they seem to be sourced from different suppliers (perhaps not, who knows, but the R&D cost on each won't be small) .... I would like to think that Leica have learned from their past problems which were caused by their being dependend on a single provider, starting with the DMR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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