M10 the game changer?

[lct]

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[...] Many posters have echoed the same sentiments

-we don't want 2 systems

-we don't want an SL to complement our M

-we don't want old lenses

-we don't want to carry 2 bodies [...]

 

Makes how many posters? You + you + you equals three?

Just kidding but don't count me in please as i do want a rangefinder for sure and i don't want to carry two bodies but i have nothing against my good old M and R lenses and i would not spend little fortunes to get a new 200mm w/o AF and IS personally.

Horses for courses. YMMV.

[-ph-]

But we already have plenty 180 APO 3.4 R that can be used with M10.

 

 

Where can I buy a new one in Germany?

 

Peter

[jmahto]

Robert Capa says "if your photos aren't good enough you aren't close enough"

 

A member in our group totally embraces this concept and also the cliche "I zoom with my feet"

 

We went to a Wetland Park to shoot birds. Unfortunately he could not walk on water and could not zoom with his feet up trees.

 

While we all shooting and getting keepers our single member had a good walk around the park.  

 

So I have to say that the above saying and cliche has its place in some situations but not all situations.

 

Horses for courses

 

We have to accept few things for long lenses:

 

Birding:

#1- Serious birding requires 400mm+ (ideally 600mm) FF equivalent lens.

#2- Since we are not in Kansas any more, we need AF and stabilization in modern world.

#3- #1+#2 makes M platform not suitable for birding.

#4- If one seriously insists then there is a solution with R lens + EVF.

 

#Wildlife:

#1- Focal length requirment varies but one certainly needs longer than 200mm.

#2- Kansas argument applies here too. M is certainly not a platform for AF. Stabilization maybe.

#3- The weight/size of R tele primes are not very different than M primes. 135-APOTelyt-M-3.4 is 450g <vs> 180-APOTelyt-R-3.4 is 750g. Why would Leica invest in a new $4K M lens when hobbyists can get excellent R lens for $1K?

 

Landscapes:

#1- You can manage very well with up to 135mm lens and you have excellent M options.

 

Conclusion:

- The folks who insist on not carrying two cameras (I am part of this group) are actually hobbyists for wildlife/birding and more than happy to extend M's range with R and other legacy options.

- The folks who seriously need wildlife/birding have no option but to pick something else than M. This is not going to change. AF and stabilization is a necessity in modern world.

[-ph-]

Many posters have echoed the same sentiments

-we don't want 2 systems

-we don't want an SL to complement our M

-we don't want old lenses

-we don't want to carry 2 bodies

I am just surprised at how people are so against the idea 

 

I second this - I am surprised how often I get told to go to a competitor of Leica here in the forum.

 

There is also a very simple argument to make: of the lenses offered by Leica so far, I have all I want. There are a few lenses which might tempt me, like upgrading my 90/2.5 to a 90/2.0, but the constant price ranges makes it easy to resist that temptation, similar things apply to the Noctilux as an alternative to my 50/1.4. So, if Leica wants to sell me another lens, well, they have to offer something I really don't have yet. 

 

Peter

[jmahto]

Where can I buy a new one in Germany?

 

Peter

I see vendors all over the world on Ebay.

[-ph-]

I see vendors all over the world on Ebay.

 

 

Besides that I don't deal on Ebay, any German vendor selling new copies with warranty?

 

Peter

[jmahto]

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Besides that I don't deal on Ebay, any German vendor selling new copies with warranty?

 

Peter

I am in USA. Not sure about Germany. Quick google search gave me this online source. I don't think anyone will give any product warranty for used R lenses (they are not produced new). Maybe just some kind of moneyback guarantee on the purchase.

 

http://okanaganconnector.com/sexdecillion/leica-r-180-apo?q=625

[-ph-]

I am in USA. Not sure about Germany. Quick google search gave me this online source. I don't think anyone will give any product warranty for used R lenses (they are not produced new). Maybe just some kind of moneyback guarantee on the purchase.

 

http://okanaganconnector.com/sexdecillion/leica-r-180-apo?q=625

 

 

That doesn't look like a German dealer - and I was looking for a new tele lens for the M10. 

[jmahto]

That doesn't look like a German dealer - and I was looking for a new tele lens for the M10. 

For new lens in native M mount you are limited to 135mm. It is good enough for landscape but not enough for wilflife/birding. For that either go for adapted lenses (R or other legacy MF lens) or pick another camera.

[-ph-]

For new lens in native M mount you are limited to 135mm. It is good enough for landscape but not enough for wilflife/birding. For that either go for adapted lenses (R or other legacy MF lens) or pick another camera.

 

 

Well, this is why I would like Leica to make something longer than 135mm for the M. They are doing wider than 28mm too. And why should I prefer a dubious used lens to a new lens for the M? 

[jmahto]

Well, this is why I would like Leica to make something longer than 135mm for the M. They are doing wider than 28mm too. And why should I prefer a dubious used lens to a new lens for the M? 

Refer to my thoughts in post #125. Leica may build what you like but I don't see that happening due to my reasoning in that post.

 

Accept that M is a manual focus specialized camera. You can always attach a trailer  to Porsche 911 but don't wait for the bigger trunk space model coming soon.

[adan]

The reality is: if you want to tow a caravan/camping trailer, you don't buy a Mazda Miata/MX-5; and if you want to photograph birds and wildflife, you don't buy a Leica M. They are both products optimized for a certain segment of the market, and not to be "all things to all people." That way lies dull, boring conformity. And their manufacturers are generally quite happy with the fact that not everyone needs or buys what they are selling - or provide other products for those needing other functions (Mazda CX-9, Leica SL).

 

(HAH! - jmahto sees the same analogy, as I post!)

 

If Leica sees a rational business case for additional longer lenses in M-mount, I expect they will do that.

 

Personally, I've never bought a new Leica lens of any kind. Never held me back. When one leaves out IS, AF, auto aperture mechanisms and plastic parts, there is not a lot that can go wrong with a lens, and require service or a warranty, so long as you check it out carefully before purchasing (mold, haze, sticky grease, etc.)

[jmahto]

...

(HAH! - jmahto sees the same analogy, as I post!)

...

Well, great men think alike.

[-ph-]

Refer to my thoughts in post #125. Leica may build what you like but I don't see that happening due to my reasoning in that post.

 

Accept that M is a manual focus specialized camera. You can always attach a trailer  to Porsche 911 but don't wait for the bigger trunk space model coming soon.

 

 

I would like a MF tele lens, made in the spirit of the M - which is maximizing compactness. Imagine a 200/4 slightly larger than the 135/3.4. Would work beautifully on the M. And if you look into the history of the M, the system is a thorough collection of trailer hitches. You have lenses with goggles, you have macro devices (which very cleverly) are fixed focus on your target, the original Visoflex. So I don't see a longer lens, which just cannot be focussed well with the RF anything out of the order. And I have seen plenty of 911 with a trailer hitch - and thinking about it, it makes a ton of sense. The 911 might not be the typical car you buy, if your focus is on trailing, but if the 911 is the car you want to drive around the year, doesn't make much more sense to attach a hitch for an occasional trailing vs. having to buy another car for using it very occasionally?

 

Peter

[-ph-]

 

Personally, I've never bought a new Leica lens of any kind. Never held me back. When one leaves out IS, AF, auto aperture mechanisms and plastic parts, there is not a lot that can go wrong with a lens, and require service or a warranty, so long as you check it out carefully before purchasing (mold, haze, sticky grease, etc.)

 

Unfortunately, my experience are not as good. I had to have lenses serviced for mechanical problems.

 

Peter

[jmahto]

I would like a MF tele lens, made in the spirit of the M - which is maximizing compactness. Imagine a 200/4 slightly larger than the 135/3.4. Would work beautifully on the M. And if you look into the history of the M, the system is a thorough collection of trailer hitches. You have lenses with goggles, you have macro devices (which very cleverly) are fixed focus on your target, the original Visoflex. So I don't see a longer lens, which just cannot be focussed well with the RF anything out of the order. And I have seen plenty of 911 with a trailer hitch - and thinking about it, it makes a ton of sense. The 911 might not be the typical car you buy, if your focus is on trailing, but if the 911 is the car you want to drive around the year, doesn't make much more sense to attach a hitch for an occasional trailing vs. having to buy another car for using it very occasionally?

 

Peter

Good.. then you prefer 911 with trailer hitches. But Porsche doesn't make those trailers. Similarly Leica decided (for now) not to make longer lenses for M. Since almost everyone in camera world is focusing on making AF lenses on their own mount, you don't have a choice for a new MF long lens now on M or R mount. I never had a problem with used M or R lens. They are built like a tank and last forever. Just make sure there is no scratch, fungus or haze when you buy. Most have a money back return guarantee making it a risk free option.

[-ph-]

Good.. then you prefer 911 with trailer hitches. But Porsche doesn't make those trailers. Similarly Leica decided (for now) not to make longer lenses for M. Since almost everyone in camera world is focusing on making AF lenses on their own mount, you don't have a choice for a new MF long lens now on M or R mount. I never had a problem with used M or R lens. They are built like a tank and last forever. Just make sure there is no scratch, fungus or haze when you buy. Most have a money back return guarantee making it a risk free option.

 

It is nice for you, that you never had a problem with your lenses, but I had very different experiences. It is nice, if lenses are still in warranty, when they develop issues.

 

Peter

[Eric1]

M10 is more of a game changer in my mind than I originally believed. After using it for awhile I honestly don't want to shoot with anything else. It's so much fun and relatively simple. It reminds me of when I first got my ricoh gr, you can't believe you ever lived without it. It isn't a camera for everything but it will bring out more of the artist in you because of its limitations and different style.

[Ozytripper]

Well, great men think alike.

Hah, Ph sees the same analogy, as I post

Great men do think alike

 

Note that the R system went all the way to 800mm, fully manual focus, no AF, no IBIS. 

Great lenses but..... oh the weight

I mentioned in my earlier posts that carrying an R with a modular 280mm F2.8 for 3 days at the Sydney Olympics killed my back.

A lovely M 200mm or 300mm a little bigger than the 135mm (like the difference between the 135mm and the 90m will be most welcome)

 

And like you suggested ADAN an M 2X extender will be most welcome

 

Its how one uses the lenses. Manual lenses will be less effective for Birds in flight but not in other types of nature photography. The National Geographics of the 70s and 80s have magnificent nature photographs (before AF and IS). It is how one uses ones tools

 

Tell you a funny story. I was out shooting birds and I was focusing on this SLEEPING FLAMINGO, yes sleeping, with its head tucked under its wing. A photographer came next to me and let out a continuous high speed burst for "like forever". My guestimate - 200+ shots?

The light was not changing, the wind wasn't blowing, there was no new scent in the air, the bird was still sleeping. I looked at him and he sort of gave me this look "this is how "Pros" do it"

Well he certainly was no pro even though he had a Canikon Pro DSLR

My point? It is how you use the lenses.

 

I don't need AF to shoot wildlife and I have always been a single shot photographer. Never used a fast burst in my life. But I am not against anyone else using it. So please don't attack me on that.  

 

Maybe those who oppose M for wildlife should read JAAP's post on M for safari which he left a link on this thread earlier. OK to use legacy lenses bu no no to new M teles? Hmmmmm.......

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Ozytripper]

We have to accept few things for long lenses:

 

Birding:

#1- Serious birding requires 400mm+ (ideally 600mm) FF equivalent lens.

#2- Since we are not in Kansas any more, we need AF and stabilization in modern world.

#3- #1+#2 makes M platform not suitable for birding.

#4- If one seriously insists then there is a solution with R lens + EVF.

 

#Wildlife:

#1- Focal length requirment varies but one certainly needs longer than 200mm.

#2- Kansas argument applies here too. M is certainly not a platform for AF. Stabilization maybe.

#3- The weight/size of R tele primes are not very different than M primes. 135-APOTelyt-M-3.4 is 450g <vs> 180-APOTelyt-R-3.4 is 750g. Why would Leica invest in a new $4K M lens when hobbyists can get excellent R lens for $1K?

 

Landscapes:

#1- You can manage very well with up to 135mm lens and you have excellent M options.

 

Conclusion:

- The folks who insist on not carrying two cameras (I am part of this group) are actually hobbyists for wildlife/birding and more than happy to extend M's range with R and other legacy options.

- The folks who seriously need wildlife/birding have no option but to pick something else than M. This is not going to change. AF and stabilization is a necessity in modern world.

Jmahto,

I currently have lenses up to 800mm Full Frame equivalent and I know how to handle my lenses for different situations

I will shoot different wildlife with different lenses.

I might also add that APSC is the preferred format to Full Frame for wildlife photography

But a 200mm plus a 2x extender will allow me to travel and get 98% of what I want to shoot

Bigger animals and birds does not really require a 600m or more unless of course they are very far away. In fact even if one has a 1200mm lens things can be so far away it is still useless

 

No system is best for everything but getting a better coverage is good enough.