jdlaing Posted June 21, 2007 Share #1 Posted June 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not wishing to get beat up over these questions but fearing I will by some anyway.......... As a DSLr user who is settled on that type for the everyday grind at work, for several reasons, why would I want to buy a M8 for my personal photography? Without delving into instruction manuals or lengthy searches.......what is the Rangefinder users preferred method of focusing? Can it be reliably focused quickly? Other than the Tri-Elmar how do you deal without Zoom lenses? I could go on but these will satisfy my needs for a bit and maybe help me ease towards the edge of the abyss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 21, 2007 Posted June 21, 2007 Hi jdlaing, Take a look here I have some M8 questions:. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
miami91 Posted June 21, 2007 Share #2 Posted June 21, 2007 I take it you didn't realize there's a dedicated M8 sub-forum?? Here's my very quick take on your questions, all quite legitimate. 1. Why an M8 over a dSLR? Compact size, quality of lenses, much better low-light performance (both because of very fast lenses and rangefinder focussing). Some will also argue about seeing beyond the frame of the image itself (sense of changing environment) --- personally I find the SLR worldview (seeing more or less your picture area alone, or 95% of it anyway) to be supervior in this regard. Also, although not a unique characteristic of rangefinders, the Leica Ms (M8 or its analogue cousins) are wonderfully built cameras, as are the lenses. Handling them is a pure pleasure. 2. Can it be focussed quickly? Yes, but in a pinch, utilizing depth-of-field scales and "range focussing" is even more efficient (although slightly less precise). 3. Lack of zooms. First of all, prime lenses are better performers than zooms, across the board (less vignetting, wider apertures, etc.). Secondly, I think a lot of us have found that we don't tend to use a whole lot of intermediate focal lengths. So in other words, you can be pretty well covered with 2-3 lenses: a wide-angle, a normal lens, and a telephoto. Or, since I generally don't like telephotos with an M, my three of choice would be an ultra wide (less than 20mm), a moderate wide angle (28 or 35mm), and a 50mm. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted June 21, 2007 Share #3 Posted June 21, 2007 James, you can't get an unbiased answer on this forum. I suggest you rent an M8 and one or two lenses for a week's time and see what you get. You will need to be a C1 or PSCS2/3 user. I highly recommend the raw (DNG) files. Be careful, you may get this illness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share #4 Posted June 21, 2007 Thank you folks. I may just give the borrow/rental a try. CS2 I got. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 21, 2007 Share #5 Posted June 21, 2007 Lack of zooms: it's called having two legs (that cost one nothing). More seriously, I sold a canon 35 f1.4 awhile back. The buyer (a quite famous local photog) asked what the deal was about Leicas. Well, for one thing, I pulled out my 35 1.4 and showed how the same Canon lens absolutely dwarfed it. I told him I can travel with 2 bodies and six lenses in the same space it takes you with one body and a zoom and maybe an extra prime. Of course, the M8 isn't for everything; sometimes one just can't beat an slr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted June 21, 2007 Share #6 Posted June 21, 2007 2. Can it be focussed quickly? Yes, but in a pinch, utilizing depth-of-field scales and "range focussing" is even more efficient (although slightly less precise). Meant to say "zone focussing" in this post --- I guess my quick response was too quick. In other words, use hyperfocal distance principles --- larger depth of field will allow you to capture an in-focus image (at least as perceived by the eye) without truly being spot-on focussed on your subject. Regards, Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted June 21, 2007 Share #7 Posted June 21, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) JD, to give you as unbiased a response as I can to the zoom-related question: I got my M8 in December, after using a D2 for almost 3 years and waiting with ill-concealed anticipation for the M8 to arrive. One of the things that I was worrying about was giving up the zoom lens in the D2. Now we all know that prime lenses offer superior optics, so I was just thinking I would miss the convenience but would be happy with the prime results. If I were to rate my results on a 1-to-10 scale (10 the highest), then 10 does not offer a high enough value (I told you we're biased). Getting my M lenses back has been a dream. Changing lenses is fine by me (wish I had saved for 2 bodies, tho). Feets do your thing (with a nod to Charles). Carefull with that rental........... It's all about the lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwf Posted June 21, 2007 Share #8 Posted June 21, 2007 The lenses. And resulting pictures. The delight of handling superlative mechanical engineering. The Ms may be the best design ever of anything ever made by man. Including being able to use lenses that were designed and built before digital photography was even thought of. It may be a disease, but whether or not it is, it is agreeable, at least to me and many others who live here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted June 22, 2007 Share #9 Posted June 22, 2007 Not wishing to get beat up over these questions but fearing I will by some anyway.......... As a DSLr user who is settled on that type for the everyday grind at work, for several reasons, why would I want to buy a M8 for my personal photography? Without delving into instruction manuals or lengthy searches.......what is the Rangefinder users preferred method of focusing? Can it be reliably focused quickly? Other than the Tri-Elmar how do you deal without Zoom lenses? I could go on but these will satisfy my needs for a bit and maybe help me ease towards the edge of the abyss. James, there are several answers to these questions. Let me give you my point of view. When I started working with the M8 a few weeks ago (having almost only worked with SLRs and DSLRs over the last few years) I found myself again forced to think before taking photos. What that means is: visualize in your brain how the photo should look like, think about distance and aperture to achieve sharp and in focus results and finally align the scene with the frames of your RF so you get the desired result. A RF helps you here significantly, since you are kind of seeing the scene in a overview mode (eagle mode) and not in the typical tunnel mode you get when using a SLR/DSLR. This allows you fats adoption to necessary changes and with some experience and practice you start getting these unique results. Can you try to focus fast? Yes you can and als with great success in many cases especially with the new high quality finders of the M8. But do not try to compete with the AF of a modern DSLR, this is always quicker, but sometimes not as accurate. So my advice would be to use focusing, especially if you have telephoto lenses, but the more tele you go the more accurate the focus (or the preset of focus) needs to be. Why the M8? Simple because it is the only RF in the digital area which produces not only satisfying but if you know your tool also outstanding results. Should you go for it? Of course, if you want to have something great and special and relearn a new and satisfying way of creative photography! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
123barbados Posted July 1, 2007 Share #10 Posted July 1, 2007 James, you can't get an unbiased answer on this forum. I suggest you rent an M8 and one or two lenses for a week's time and see what you get. You will need to be a C1 or PSCS2/3 user. I highly recommend the raw (DNG) files. Be careful, you may get this illness. Could you please explain what is a "C1 or PSCS2/3 user"? Appreciate clarification. Many thanks, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
holgerf Posted July 1, 2007 Share #11 Posted July 1, 2007 Could you please explain what is a "C1 or PSCS2/3 user"?Appreciate clarification. Many thanks, The meaning is: To be able to handle the DNG (RAW) files you need to be a user of either the program Capture One from PhaseOne (= C1) or Adobe’s Photoshop or CreativeSuite, Version 2 or 3 (= PSCS2/3). Best Holger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted July 1, 2007 Share #12 Posted July 1, 2007 C1 is Capture One, PSCS is Photoshop Creative Suite, both programs that process Raw or DNG files from the Leica. I don't think you "have to be" a user of either program to use an M8. I usually use Lightroom, another Photoshop product, many people here use other programs such as Raw Developer, and some just take JPEGs and download them. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest devonboy Posted July 1, 2007 Share #13 Posted July 1, 2007 My Nikon D200 and zoom lenses, and all the others before it, took me out of photography. The camera took over and I was left out of the process. My M8 and prime lenses have encouraged me to re-learn the art of photography and it has made me realise how much I took for granted. Being able to get involved in the picture taking process is worth more than the price of this equipment. It's why we became interested in photography in the first place. As Nike says - just do it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
egibaud Posted July 1, 2007 Share #14 Posted July 1, 2007 Hi, Before deciding which lens to buy, use your SLR with a zoom in the same way as you would use a fix focal. ie: pre-set the zoom at 28 - 35 - 50 -75 -90 mm (take into account the ratio, for example on full frame, a 50mm would be a 35mm on the M8) Make pics and find out which focals work best for you. You will normally find out that with a couple of lenses (28 - 75 / 35 - 90) you will cover most of your needs, too far and no zoom? a couple of steps forward and there you are. I have 15, 28, 35 , 50, 75 and 90 focal, but I normally use them by pair + the 15 according to what I need to do this day. But actually they all fit with the M8 body in one single bag!!! Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nryn Posted July 1, 2007 Share #15 Posted July 1, 2007 James, For a more unbiased approach to your questions, leave the M8 out of this discussion entirely and focus instead on the difference between SLR photography and rangefinder photography. Both methods/technologies in photos. Neither method is categorically better, and both have strengths and weaknesses. Their strengths, however, are in different areas. There are definitely those who will say either rangefinders or SLRs are the ultimate tool for reasons x, y, and z. They are zealots. Most of it really boils down to a personal preference for the way you want to work, and some of this translates into the kind of results you get. I won't go into a lengthy discussion of "what Rangefinder photography is"; that is covered quite well elsewhere. But I think Bill had the best idea: rent a rangefinder camera for a few days and see if you like taking pictures with it. Like most things, even auto-everything things, it takes practice to get good at it, but if you like the method and think it gets you tangibly better results than you get with your SLR (results here not limited to the characteristics of the images, but also to your personal pleasure and engagement with the photographic process), perhaps an M8 is for you! Discussions of SLR photography vs. rangefinder photography remind me strongly of the difference between bait/lure fishing and fly fishing. I do the latter; given the reasons why I prefer to flyfish, that I also have an M8 is probably not surprising. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 2, 2007 Share #16 Posted July 2, 2007 ... The Ms may be the best design ever of anything ever made by man...... Craig - No offence, but in the context of the M8 this statement is ridiculous. Yes I have an M8 [because I am a long time rangefinder photographer, and have downsized to film free photography] but the M8 is a marriage of engineering brilliance spoilt by heritage anachronisms coupled with design absurdities. For example: The silly base-plate,, lack of external flash connection, lousy ergonomics, shutter release poorly placed on top of the camera, heaviness of shutter release, shutter speed release on top of the camera as opposed to a better positioned thumb-wheel operation at the rear of the camera, noisy operation, distracting paired frame-lines, direct rather than clear-zoom finder, lack of built in diopter correction, the bolt-on viewfinder magnifier without diopter correction, the laughable Frankenfinder and it's Kamikaze tendency, other wide angle finders without built in diopter correction or spirit level, the Leica filter holder for the WATE................... I really enjoy my M8, but that's despite it's readily apparent warts. The camera is an 'ancient and modern' design, it arose from the company's very rocky financial position and in that context is quite some achievement, but it is not a modern masterpiece of design without room for considerable improvement. I have praised the M8 by buying one, and I am glad that Leica is steering itself away from dodgy Parisian handbag makers and back towards photographers; maybe the next M rangefinder will a modern design classic to entice more photographers away from the ubiquitous DSLR. I'll go and get my flak jacket. ....................Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted July 2, 2007 Author Share #17 Posted July 2, 2007 I have learned a lot from everybody's comments here. I shall take them all to heart and give it a try. I thank you all for your responses. Regarding lenses I think I shall start where I did 42 years ago and go from 50mm to 35mm and then experiment with the longer ones................... Again...........thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted July 2, 2007 Share #18 Posted July 2, 2007 M-mount 50s are for the most part amazing, but they are effectively nearly 70mm on the M8. I've found the wides and ultrawides are most interesting, esp. compared to most SLR wides, which can't touch the corner-to-corner sharpness and the sense of clarity and depth in the M-mount wides. Also, the M8 really excels at capturing rich detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted July 2, 2007 Share #19 Posted July 2, 2007 .... I think I shall start where I did 42 years ago and go from 50mm to 35mm and then experiment with the longer ones................... James - Then my best advice is to start by enrolling on Sean Reid's subscription site Reid Reviews. There you will encounter essential reading. ....................Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dseelig Posted July 2, 2007 Share #20 Posted July 2, 2007 Why for personal work well I am 50 and my shoulder aches at times. MIND YOU I HAVE A COMPLETE CANON SYSTEM A 5D A 1DS MK 11 A 1D MK11 and as of tomm a 1d mk 111 I shoot pro football for part of my living. Pick up a 5d with a 35 1.4 a 50 1.4 and a 85 1.2 then the corresponding leica lenses. guess what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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