Jeff S Posted February 24, 2017 Share #21 Posted February 24, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Stuff happens... it's how the company communicates and responds that warrants harsher critique IMO. The biggest frustration of the dealer with whom I spoke was not the failures (although that was important); it was the lack of timely response, information and service, even with him as a key seller. I'm still interested in the system...provided Leica can get ITS act together. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 24, 2017 Posted February 24, 2017 Hi Jeff S, Take a look here Bash the S !!!!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Herr Barnack Posted February 24, 2017 Share #22 Posted February 24, 2017 In my view there are many things to loathe about the spiteful, malevolent S camera - chief among them is the fact that I do not own one. Yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted February 24, 2017 Share #23 Posted February 24, 2017 Jeff, I think that the US distributor does the country no favours. Living in Europe I am happy with the service I have had, and it was not too bad when I lived the other side of the world (NZ) sending stuff to Solms (as was) via the NZ distributor. john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 24, 2017 Share #24 Posted February 24, 2017 Could be, but that doesn't excuse lack of formal, proactive communications regarding the nature of the problem, the fix, etc. Until recently we didn't know if the fix was 'permanent'' or not. When there was forum discontent regarding M8/9 LCD screens, Stefan Daniel posted on the forum, finally acknowledging the issue and describing the plan to address. Even that was slow in coming, but still welcome. On the S, the silence has been deafening. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted February 24, 2017 Share #25 Posted February 24, 2017 The Leica M brings in the money... IMO it is as simple as that. The Leica S is just not as critical to Leica as the Leica M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted February 24, 2017 Share #26 Posted February 24, 2017 Even the occasional message from Stephan Daniel (who I believe has interacted here with customers about the S) or some other representative would be a very easy way to restore some goodwill. How much does it take really? Certainly worthwhile I should think. I wonder if Leica staff have been (or were until recently) instructed by their legal department specifically not to go on record about the AF issue. I say this because I've asked both German and US reps (sometimes both on the same email) a few times whether the repair of my lens will be the permanent solution. Each time they responded promptly but ignored that particular question. And today either my repaired lens or my repaired S007 (or both?) showed up at my US address--I've yet to pick it up because I'm out of the country. Nobody bothered to warn me that it was coming. My emails to Leica over the past two weeks have been ignored. It seems their effort at improving service to S customers was very short-lived. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlingmm Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share #27 Posted February 24, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Leica M brings in the money... IMO it is as simple as that. The Leica S is just not as critical to Leica as the Leica M. I think Leica has made a huge investment in the S system, and is strongly motivated to make it a success. All the more strange that they have let the AF issue develop to be detrimental, but I guess they needed a permanent solution first. Some kind of statement should be imminent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
349A Posted February 25, 2017 Share #28 Posted February 25, 2017 I think if you removed 2-3 members posts just for a day, this forum would be pretty positive for that day. And I agree, a few guys feel the need to repeat themselves to the point of making the forum extremely unpleasant. Funny thing, one of them doesn't even own a S. Maybe he thinks if he sabotages each and every thread, he will get the S for pennies on the dollar. Whatever his reason, it's bordering on mental disorder. The S is the best camera system I have ever owned. Its nearly perfect. AF fix brings it from amazing to perfection. Oh, Leica USA sucks and needs a complete change of management and customer service. Dump them all from the president down. Keep the techs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted February 25, 2017 Share #29 Posted February 25, 2017 Does this count as bashing? My first experience with the S was a good one, second hand 006, 3 lens, 35, 70, 120, all working perfect. My second experience was also a 006, brand new, bought in UK, arrived with dead pixel that is unfixable with a map. Replaced free of course, but already sour the experience, cause never had I ever need to exchange a brand new camera out of box because of sensor problem with any other brand.... this shouldn't happen in the first place.... Then sold the 006 when 007 came out... the body is fine, but has some electrical issue with Aperture not able to open up in Liveview... either I am stupid and uniformed with the operation, but even pressing down on the DoF button doesn't change anything in Live View, This is important cause I am doing 10 stop ND filter and OVF is useless in this case... then, my lens start to fail... I was a happy user for quite awhile and doesn't believe about the AF motor gear fail issue that was quite common in this forum as well as warned by my dealer in Shanghai. first fail was the 24, then the 35 (fail AF as well as Stucked Aperture blade), then the 100, then the 120, and finally after getting the 30-90, and it has pretty poor image quality compare even to the Contax 45-90... I gave up... really gave up and I starting to really hate this camera and their so called customer service... and yes, upon selling all the gear, I lost a ton of money cause Leica S camera price is dropping like flies, not because of these bashing, like our good friend above said, but through their own quality, they destroy their own brand. All these are unnecessary to begin with.... customer service are helpful, but some of the problem should not have happened in the first place, it's like 'ohh sorry bout the brake failing on your car and you crash into a tree, here here, we will replace a car for you.... no harm done' A 20 year old Medium format auto focus lens is better than your modern lens in almost every aspect except built quality (if you can call that built quality).... This will be my last bashing. I promised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 25, 2017 Share #30 Posted February 25, 2017 This thread seems a bit condescending. To be clear up front, for me and the work I do, the "S Camera" and the CS/S optics is the best image making kit I have ever used, (and I've used a lot of different MFD and high-end 35mm systems professionally and privately). That fact makes it even more discouraging to endure constant reliability/service issues. Also, I am not interested in any other MF camera, and have committed considerable financial resources to the S as a professional and personal "art" tool. In short, when it works, there is nothing like it. However, I cannot recall a time when I had the entire S system at my disposal ... there has always been something gone for service. So yes, I HAVE complained about the S, but for good reason. In some cases I've spoken up because others seem to foster the opinion, write posts, or start threads like this that imply that all is fine just because they have not experienced the rash of issues that others have. While I understand that (honestly, I do!), it doesn't mitigate the poor experiences that victims of the S situation have endured when the issue of reliability or USA service is being discussed. So, I will continue to speak out where appropriate, and not be herded to some isolated thread because the truth irritates someone. When the S kit I have does work the way one reasonably should expect, I will go dark immediately and not utter a peep anywhere. I have better things to do with my time than publicly air the dirty laundry necessary to get Leica to act on it. Unfortunately, after years and years of using the S, it is still plagued with issues and frustrating owner experiences. I will refrain from detailing all my issues during those years, suffice it to say that almost everything that could go wrong, has. The worse issue has been that every lens has failed, and some have failed twice. This is NOT an isolated problem, nor a small percentage of lenses as others have implied, or the product of a couple of rogue complainers on this forum. If that were the case Leica would have just fixed it or replaced the lens. Also, through trusted sources, I know Leica is well aware of the AF issue and it is epidemic. That is why they searched for a "permanent" fix. Without clarification from Leica, we can defensively assume that it isn't "whether" a S lens will fail, it is "when". Recently, I've had two lenses fail, again. Then, Leica USA literally lost my CS70, gone, vanished (intervention by a dealer got it replaced). They currently have my CS/35 which we were assured would ship back to me this past week ... not here, and no communication whether it did ship, or anything. I've tolerated all this because I LOVE the S images and the features/functions it incorporates. I love the results and so do my clients. I'm not interested in more meg, mirrorless, or ISO 50,000 because I do not need it or want it. I do need a kit I can trust so I can get on with the work I do rather than spend endless hours shlepping stuff to be repaired, worrying over getting it fixed, sweating bullets every time I go to use the kit, packing a full secondary system and all its' accessories cords and stuff because I defensively have to assume that it is likely the S will fail some in some way ... which is nerve-racking. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrayson3 Posted February 25, 2017 Share #31 Posted February 25, 2017 Marc, Condescending? (Unless you mean the title, which was started in jest.) I repeat. No one doubts or dismisses the problems and frustrations that many users have had. Some of those users, even ones no longer invested in the system, repeat their stories in every thread, often more than once. If the justification for that is to warn innocent potential dupes, then a single stickied thread with those details plainly available would serve that purpose better. On the other hand, if it is to share the misery so that no one else enjoys their system either, then it is detrimental to the forum in general. Yes, some people took the opportunity for levity, but it is nothing compared to the relentless bashing - and bashing is the right word - that Leica and S users take from the few who repeat their ill treatment at least daily. As I told you before, I considered your displeasure with the S important enough to report it up the chain through my own contacts. I'm nobody, but they know you. So I thank you for telling your story now, and welcome any suggestions as to how to have some balance in this forum. Best, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted February 25, 2017 Share #32 Posted February 25, 2017 Love the S but what I hate is that the rubber on the memory card door keeps coming lose! It's already been replaced at Leica once, but now only a few months later it has come lose again... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted February 25, 2017 Share #33 Posted February 25, 2017 L Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted February 26, 2017 Share #34 Posted February 26, 2017 Marc, Condescending? (Unless you mean the title, which was started in jest.) I repeat. No one doubts or dismisses the problems and frustrations that many users have had. Some of those users, even ones no longer invested in the system, repeat their stories in every thread, often more than once. If the justification for that is to warn innocent potential dupes, then a single stickied thread with those details plainly available would serve that purpose better. On the other hand, if it is to share the misery so that no one else enjoys their system either, then it is detrimental to the forum in general. Yes, some people took the opportunity for levity, but it is nothing compared to the relentless bashing - and bashing is the right word - that Leica and S users take from the few who repeat their ill treatment at least daily. As I told you before, I considered your displeasure with the S important enough to report it up the chain through my own contacts. I'm nobody, but they know you. So I thank you for telling your story now, and welcome any suggestions as to how to have some balance in this forum. Best, Matt Hi Mat. Thank you for your thoughtfully written post. It may seem like there is a lot of bashing going on ... but I can't find evidence of that when reading through all of the S threads ... unless you mean threads where S owners are looking for solutions to a problem they are having, or reporting some real issue. Where else would they come for answers and/or possible solutions from other users? If there seems to be a lot of those threads, it may point to the fact that there are a lot of issues either with the gear or user error. I also define "bashing" as unreasonable or even insulting negative connotations ... like when Leica products are linked to dilettante enthusiasts with more money than brains. That sort of thing has been going on forever, and I personally just ignore them. So when you say "every thread" it seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me, or an over sensitivity to the real issues with the S system. Not saying there are no bashers, just that it seems less pervasive than being portrayed on this thread aimed at stopping it. The notion of "sharing their misery so no one else enjoys their system" is one way of seeing it, another perspective could be just as valid ... I'd be more inclined to characterize it as frustration from the lack of any communication from Leica, and the deafening silence many experience when trying to sort out issues with a very expensive system they have committed to. Where can their voice be heard if Leica has no ears for them? Logically, it would be here. That is the power of the internet where flawed products or poor treatment can be revealed to the public at large, or more frequently where answers to issues can be explored and maybe solved by other users. That they continue on complaining only points to the fact that Leica still isn't communicating with their frustrated owners about the real problems they face on a daily basis. You say that Leica is aware of me ... hopefully that is true since I've spent a quarter million dollars + on their products during my photographic trek. Despite your generous efforts, intervention by dealers, and communications with Leica omnibus-field reps ... the S reliability/service experience hasn't changed much, and not one Leica executive or their minions has ever contacted me to sort out anything, or acknowledge my long term loyalty to their brand with a simple private communication and discussion. While I do NOT think I'm some special person, it is a bit off putting when some folks hawking their wares get special attention, and those of us with legitimate issues seemingly face a wall of apathy. Please remember that not every S owner is awash in cash and an abundance of time to deal with persistent failures. Personally, I can't afford to dump the system willy-nilly ... besides, I do not want something else. I do not know how to bring more balance to the S forum ... I do not read all the problem threads unless it relates to some issue I am having, or a thread where I may have a suggestion based on my own experience with the same issue ... instead, I tend to concentrate on the image thread, or questions such as how to use lighting with an S where I can hopefully contribute something positive. - Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrayson3 Posted February 26, 2017 Share #35 Posted February 26, 2017 Marc, It's fair to challenge me on the "every post", so I'm checking. I'll exempt this thread for obvious reasons. The images thread is too long to go through. I didn't find any S bashing the the 10 pages I looked at. Wish List is fairly clean. Fuji Medium Format is rife. Permanent fix is pretty bad. S(006) robbed. Sad, but free of bashing. S image problems - poster joke about bashing Leica, but aren't actually. I'm confusing this thread with the getDPI version. Bye Leica - incessant. 100 vs. 120 - free Flash - free Choosing lenses - starts off well, descends badly M adapter - free Leica NJ - free. So how am I doing? I count 4 out of 11. So I retract my "every" statement. My further statement about repetitions would take more effort to justify. I will also grant that I am oversensitive to gratuitous internet hostility (even as I probably display it myself). Ah well, facts are precious things. As for people being frustrated and using this forum as an outlet - that certainly is the case. I don't know if it does as much good as venting that frustration to Leica's dealers, product managers, and executives. Repeating the problem to them will almost certainly help more than repeating it here. Certain problems cry out for legal recourse. In which case, the less said in public, the better. Then there are those who claim to no longer be invested in the system. What problem are they trying to solve by continued complaining? Money is a difficult issue. It's very hard to see the problem from the point of view of someone in different financial circumstances. I qualify as a wealthy amateur (ok, mildly professional, but still). But I know quite well someone who makes his entire living with the S, and deals with the (very few) problems that arise the way all professionals do - backups (Contax lenses, an SL, even the Q can save the day) and good dealer relationships. If I felt my livelihood were threatened by broken promises or unprofessional dealings, I'd probably respond as uncivilly as anyone here. But I ramble. I thank you for your (always) clear and informative posts, and even more for the examples you post from time to time of your wedding work, which is extraordinary. Best, Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted February 26, 2017 Share #36 Posted February 26, 2017 I do find it curious that a few people who don't own an S like to come here and "bash" it--belittle it and glorify its competitors. That's quite different than current owners who've stuck with the S and have been repeatedly disappointed. Perhaps we can call that "venting." There's a third, somewhat more suspect category of people left the S but return here still to vent--apparently because the trauma or loss was too great. I don't know that venting makes any difference other than emotional comfort, but I assume in the back of everyone's mind is the hope that Leica will somehow hear it and respond. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted February 27, 2017 Share #37 Posted February 27, 2017 I do find it curious that a few people who don't own an S like to come here and "bash" it--belittle it and glorify its competitors. That's quite different than current owners who've stuck with the S and have been repeatedly disappointed. Perhaps we can call that "venting." There's a third, somewhat more suspect category of people left the S but return here still to vent--apparently because the trauma or loss was too great. I don't know that venting makes any difference other than emotional comfort, but I assume in the back of everyone's mind is the hope that Leica will somehow hear it and respond. I fall in your third category. Wanted it so bad to do well... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted February 27, 2017 Share #38 Posted February 27, 2017 I do find it curious that a few people who don't own an S like to come here and "bash" it--belittle it and glorify its competitors. That's quite different than current owners who've stuck with the S and have been repeatedly disappointed. Perhaps we can call that "venting." There's a third, somewhat more suspect category of people left the S but return here still to vent--apparently because the trauma or loss was too great. I don't know that venting makes any difference other than emotional comfort, but I assume in the back of everyone's mind is the hope that Leica will somehow hear it and respond. I fall in your third category. Wanted it so bad to do well... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted February 27, 2017 Share #39 Posted February 27, 2017 I was thinking of you, Xiaubauu. I think it would be helpful for others to know why you keep coming back. Thus far I have assumed that you lost a lot of money getting out of the system, which added insult to the injury and frustration of having owned it--and wanting it do well, as you say. I bought the S007 about 14 months ago a bit lower than list price. To help my finances I have been wanting to sell it and "downgrade" to an S2 (which I already have) before the Fuji comes out, but Leica still has it for repair and is not responding to emails. I sent it only to replace the rubber armor (whose habit of detaching is frankly ridiculous), but they found all these other errors that I didn't know about and are asking for $2500. So the body is now worth half what I paid and less and less by the day, and I can't even use it. When Leica do respond, they never give ETAs--only the generic and meaningless "delay due to missing parts" excuse. I asked 3 times if the repair of my S45 lens (which failed literally during my negotiations with a would-be buyer, luckily for him) was permanent--no response. Then 4 months later it shows up, unannounced. It's sense of being held hostage and treated like you don't exist that's the most aggravating to me. That is separate from the undeniable joy the gear brings when it does work. If anything the joy, as you suggest, makes the aggravation even more aggravating. Ultimately I am with Marc that the widespread venting reflects the helplessness and frustration S users feel, not unreasonable hatred of the brand. If one must assign blame, it can only rest with Leica. And certainly too if anyone has a solution, it is Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted February 27, 2017 Share #40 Posted February 27, 2017 This thread is for those who notoriously, in any thread they visit, just cannot stop bashing the S system, sometimes based on own experiences, sometimes on hearsay and repeating what others say. Feel free to post it all here, but please let those of us who use and love the system have our discussions on topic in other threads ! Why would anyone in there right mind, slag off probably the best camera Leica has ever made Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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