jmahto Posted July 15, 2017 Share #761 Posted July 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Care for a third? popcorn.gif Yup... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 15, 2017 Posted July 15, 2017 Hi jmahto, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 15, 2017 Share #762 Posted July 15, 2017 Shooting tethered is not uncommon and those that I know who use the M in a commercial context all do at some point. That is not to say it's on every shoot though. It's just like having a polaroid back but better. While others will disagree, the M 240 was a very versatile and expansive system and having the M262 and M-D along side made sense for those who wanted to keep things minimal - I certainly do want that sometimes which is why I think an optional grip would be perfect. The M9 and M8 both had in built USB ports. Actually, it's one of the reasons I love the M9 and I was disappointed that the USB grip for the M240 was an extra £1000 at the time but I would be happy with it now. The M9 is a very simple camera that appealed to everyone, it's lacking little and doesn't have the added bloat of the the 240 that some complained about. Personally I think the M240 is compact enough and it's a shame to see so much functionality lost for a few mm, that to me makes no difference at all. The decision to cover up the grip connector may have been a marketing one made after the design process. It sure seems odd to have a feature and cover it up in a way that is not removable by a latch or button. But who know's. Maybe the M10 is a new base level concept of simplicity and we will see other iterations arise which cater to different users. I'm not feeling so confident about that though. Leica can't know what people need and want if they don't speak up and the forum is a great place for that. Some people just don't like others opinions and needs very much though! Actually the real problem is that the WiFi is not implemented well enough to replace the USB connection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 15, 2017 Share #763 Posted July 15, 2017 The decision to cover up the grip connector may have been a marketing one made after the design process. Intriguing! Can one just cut a hole in the plates and snoop live into the M10's USB? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #764 Posted July 15, 2017 Actually the real problem is that the WiFi is not implemented well enough to replace the USB connection. If wifi could replace tethering I would be all over it. That would be a dream. But I can't imagine in camera wifi is going to replace it any time soon. Sending a raw photo to a computer every second in a stable and reliable manner is quite a while off I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted July 15, 2017 Share #765 Posted July 15, 2017 Shooting tethered is not uncommon and those that I know who use the M in a commercial context all do at some point. That is not to say it's on every shoot though. It's just like having a polaroid back but better. While others will disagree, the M 240 was a very versatile and expansive system and having the M262 and M-D along side made sense for those who wanted to keep things minimal - I certainly do want that sometimes which is why I think an optional grip would be perfect. The M9 and M8 both had in built USB ports. Actually, it's one of the reasons I love the M9 and I was disappointed that the USB grip for the M240 was an extra £1000 at the time but I would be happy with it now. The M9 is a very simple camera that appealed to everyone, it's lacking little and doesn't have the added bloat of the the 240 that some complained about. Personally I think the M240 is compact enough and it's a shame to see so much functionality lost for a few mm, that to me makes no difference at all. The decision to cover up the grip connector may have been a marketing one made after the design process. It sure seems odd to have a feature and cover it up in a way that is not removable by a latch or button. But who know's. Maybe the M10 is a new base level concept of simplicity and we will see other iterations arise which cater to different users. I'm not feeling so confident about that though. Leica can't know what people need and want if they don't speak up and the forum is a great place for that. Some people just don't like others opinions and needs very much though! Although I agree that shooting tethered is not uncommon, you are the only one that I know or have seen that shoots a Leica M tethered. Perhaps there are lots out there who do it, but I haven't seen it or seen anyone else here talk about doing it. Shooting tethered means a lack of mobility and I see great mobility as a hallmark of an M camera, but of course you and others are free to see it differently. And I am one who disagrees that the M240 was a very versatile and expansive system. Can you shoot astro with it? Yeah, but the long exposure noise reduction not being able to be shut off really makes it a non-starter. Can you shoot wildlife with it? Yeah, but you can't get image stabilization and the EVF which is required really sucks compared to anything else. Again I think it is a non-starter for all but a brave few like Jaap. Can you shoot video on it? Yeah, but no video out ports, a very awkward kludge of the hot shoe to get any sort of mic in and then you can't monitor the sound in. No focus peaking. I could go on, but really a non-starter for video too. Could you use live view to shoot landscapes? Yeah, but again you are stuck with awful limitations. You can only focus in the centre and if your lenses have any field curvature you just have to guess on focus in the periphery. This is really a non-starter for me for my landscape work. So, yes the M240 does a lot of things, but it does a bunch of those things not very well at all. I don't mind at all that the M10 dropped some of those things like video that the M240 didn't do very well. I also like that it now does some of those things quite well. The better EVF and moveable live view makes wide angle landscapes much much easier and the M can now compete with any platform for this type of work especially with the excellent Leica M lenses. Now we can focus them well examining focus at many different points in the shot. I like that the better EVF lets us use longer lenses well especially if we can stabilize the shot with a monopod or a tripod. I like that the higher ISO capabilities let's us shoot portraits very well in low light. Astro still has the stupid long exposure noise reduction issue, but most aspects of stills photography have a nice upgrade with the M10 over the M240. In my view that is a big step forward even if video is left behind. The M10 may not be a very versatile and expansive system, but it does what it does very well and it fills a unique niche. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #766 Posted July 15, 2017 Intriguing! Can one just cut a hole in the plates and snoop into the M10's USB? . I was wondering the same, Pico - if the guts of the M240 grip could be plugged into the connector, and what would happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 15, 2017 Share #767 Posted July 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is interesting that the Leica community has no firmware hackers. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 15, 2017 Share #768 Posted July 15, 2017 Leica can't know what people need and want if they don't speak up and the forum is a great place for that. Some people just don't like others opinions and needs very much though! And I'm sure they listen more closely when called "dicks" and "monkeys". Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #769 Posted July 15, 2017 Although I agree that shooting tethered is not uncommon, you are the only one that I know or have seen that shoots a Leica M tethered. Perhaps there are lots out there who do it, but I haven't seen it or seen anyone else here talk about doing it. Shooting tethered means a lack of mobility and I see great mobility as a hallmark of an M camera, but of course you and others are free to see it differently. And I am one who disagrees that the M240 was a very versatile and expansive system. Can you shoot astro with it? Yeah, but the long exposure noise reduction not being able to be shut off really makes it a non-starter. Can you shoot wildlife with it? Yeah, but you can't get image stabilization and the EVF which is required really sucks compared to anything else. Again I think it is a non-starter for all but a brave few like Jaap. Can you shoot video on it? Yeah, but no video out ports, a very awkward kludge of the hot shoe to get any sort of mic in and then you can't monitor the sound in. No focus peaking. I could go on, but really a non-starter for video too. Could you use live view to shoot landscapes? Yeah, but again you are stuck with awful limitations. You can only focus in the centre and if your lenses have any field curvature you just have to guess on focus in the periphery. This is really a non-starter for me for my landscape work. So, yes the M240 does a lot of things, but it does a bunch of those things not very well at all. I don't mind at all that the M10 dropped some of those things like video that the M240 didn't do very well. I also like that it now does some of those things quite well. The better EVF and moveable live view makes wide angle landscapes much much easier and the M can now compete with any platform for this type of work especially with the excellent Leica M lenses. Now we can focus them well examining focus at many different points in the shot. I like that the better EVF lets us use longer lenses well especially if we can stabilize the shot with a monopod or a tripod. I like that the higher ISO capabilities let's us shoot portraits very well in low light. Astro still has the stupid long exposure noise reduction issue, but most aspects of stills photography have a nice upgrade with the M10 over the M240. In my view that is a big step forward even if video is left behind. The M10 may not be a very versatile and expansive system, but it does what it does very well and it fills a unique niche. I think the M is a victim of it's own history, it's pigeon holed. It amazes me when people say "it's not the camera for that". To me it's just a very compact camera, a light tight box with the most simple of manual settings and exceptional image quality that does (or did) mostly everything I need of it. It travels around the world much easier than most, with some of the best lenses going that I am quite smitten with and a focussing system that I have come to love over most. I find it very rapid and accurate to use. For all it's quirks, I just see what I love and it delivered exactly the kind of thing I was using it for and it is a joy to use. I've tried to replace it with other systems but there are few lenses I love as much as my Leica's and some like the Noctilux are unmatched. It's a perfect balance of character and performance that you can't find elsewhere. Much of what I love about the Noctilux, for example, reminds me somewhat of some of the large format aesthetic that I also like. Having that in such a small camera was a total revelation. I use it in conjunction with medium format and it allows an immediacy that no other camera has given me. That is part of my process and part of the package. Then as a personal camera it goes with me everywhere I go. My personal work and commercial work aren't that different but the commercial work has a different set of needs. I'm not ashamed to say I am indeed connected with it. What it can't do for anyone else is irrelevant to me, what someone thinks I shouldn't be using it for us funny to me, and quite frankly not that much of an interest. So when you find something that suits you perfectly and you love to use, it's kind of a shock and a disappointment to have it taken away from you like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #770 Posted July 15, 2017 And I'm sure they listen more closely when called "dicks" and "monkeys". Jeff You did. Go buy a £4.5K SL instead of having USB on the M is a dick thing to do. Some decisions being made by this company at the moment are the work of monkeys. That is criticism. Don't worry, if you haven't noticed I also lather on the praise too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #771 Posted July 15, 2017 It is interesting that the Leica community has no firmware hackers. . It would certainly be interesting to know what could be coaxed out of the M10 with some hacking. It wouldn't surprise me if video was there too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted July 15, 2017 Share #772 Posted July 15, 2017 It would certainly be interesting to know what could be coaxed out of the M10 with some hacking. It wouldn't surprise me if video was there too. Looking into the hacks on Panasonic (which I also use) firmware is enlightening. I leave it to our readership to ferret it out. It is easy. When I was employed in computing R&D in 2009 I had a large enough budget to look into the M9's firmware. It is clear today that Leica's firmware developers have moved far away from its earlier development. I mean that with the programing kit necessary for the M9 I could almost understand the code. It was a lot of inherited code, full of compiler litter, but it worked. I am now retired with none of the very cool resources I had, and I am not smart enough to dive into the current software. Maybe I'm just a typical old fart Leica user. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted July 15, 2017 Share #773 Posted July 15, 2017 The decision to cover up the grip connector may have been a marketing one made after the design process. It sure seems odd to have a feature and cover it up in a way that is not removable by a latch or button. But who know's. Perhaps it was designed in initially, but in the end they found no acceptable way to deal with the weather sealing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted July 16, 2017 Share #774 Posted July 16, 2017 For me, USB is a fundamental and core requirement, without it I have to move on. I just want an optional grip, that's all. I now own my M10 several month and a lot of use. Today I learned that it has no USB port - Thanks for the information! But what should be a usecase for this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alo Ako Posted July 16, 2017 Share #775 Posted July 16, 2017 But what should be a usecase for this? You may load your battery by USB, you may transfer pictures via USB... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted July 16, 2017 Share #776 Posted July 16, 2017 You may load your battery by USB, ... This happens not to be the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithlaban.co.uk Posted July 16, 2017 Share #777 Posted July 16, 2017 Still no level??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 16, 2017 Share #778 Posted July 16, 2017 Despite the M10 not being to the liking of Paul J, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is the camera that an awful lot of photographers have been waiting for and is proving to be a huge success for Leica. To me, and many others, this is close to being the perfect digital M. Far from alienating professional photographers with its minimalism, it's actually bringing them back into the fold. I suspect that Leica will survive the loss of Paul's support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted July 16, 2017 Share #779 Posted July 16, 2017 Still no level??? When standing on one foot, patting your tummy and rubbing your head, why do you need to know where is level!? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted July 16, 2017 Share #780 Posted July 16, 2017 Despite the M10 not being to the liking of Paul J, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is the camera that an awful lot of photographers have been waiting for and is proving to be a huge success for Leica. To me, and many others, this is close to being the perfect digital M. Far from alienating professional photographers with its minimalism, it's actually bringing them back into the fold. I suspect that Leica will survive the loss of Paul's support. Evidence? I've seen exactly the same online response to this M as to previous ones: the best M ever, a total step backwards, my first Leica purchase, I'll buy a Sony, a marketing success, a marketing failure........... None of us have much evidence for market demands and sales success beyond our own wants and purchases. I am sure you are correct that the M10 has brought in new photographers, and brought back those who'd stopped buying Leicas. There are also those who, like Jaap and PaulJ, are turned off by the absence of video or USB ports, and others, like me, for whom it is just not a big enough step forward to be worth upgrading. Is there evidence that one group is bigger than the other? No, just guesswork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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