mhicks Posted July 15, 2017 Share #721 Posted July 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) As long as there is no trade off in software architecture wherein photo stills is compromised AND no trade off in physical dimensions to accommodate video, I don't mind it being there. As soon as it's said that something couldn't be done (e.g., make it smaller, more ergonomic, longer mtbf, etc) because they accommodated video, then I'd rather it be left behind. Just the thoughts of one consumer; someone who never considered a digital Leica until the 10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 15, 2017 Posted July 15, 2017 Hi mhicks, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest Posted July 15, 2017 Share #722 Posted July 15, 2017 No, it really doesn't need "4K, USB3 I/O, preferably 2x HDMI ports, 2x SDHC cards slots to handle the larger 4K files AND a fully orientable screen like Panasonic's GH and the latest GX models". Not everything needs to have broadcast or Hollywood quality or be some enormous production with a gimbal, external recorder, focus puller etc. Framing via the screen and live view works fine for me. The M240's video is OK, it has limits and boundaries but it serves a purpose. Well USB3, yes it does need it, and should have it. No excuse, IMO. "For someone to spend the kind of $$$$'s on an M that would be fully video capable, even it it was technically possible, they should expect the camera to have more than just the ability to shoot 1080 or 4K, it would need to satisfy other ergonomic and video filming adaptive criteria too" No, just not true, IMO. 1080 is OK, 4K would be a plus, everything else is unnecessary for the kind of camera it is. I'm not talking about transforming it into a serious video camera, but making it a serious camera with video, again. What I expressed here Paul were my own opinions in regards to the M10 and other M cameras video capabilities based on real experience, we all have different expectations from the gear we buy be it professional or occasional. The M10 works extremely well for me for what I need it to do, for what I bought it for. To my surprise it's considerably better than the M240 of which I still have one. If I needed other features that the M10 doesn't have now, i.e. video etc etc, then I would have bought into another system. I don't expect what works for me to work for all, nothing's absolute, horses for courses........... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #723 Posted July 15, 2017 What I expressed here Paul were my own opinions in regards to the M10 and other M cameras video capabilities based on real experience, we all have different expectations from the gear we buy be it professional or occasional. The M10 works extremely well for me for what I need it to do, for what I bought it for. To my surprise it's considerably better than the M240 of which I still have one. If I needed other features that the M10 doesn't have now, i.e. video etc etc, then I would have bought into another system. I don't expect what works for me to work for all, nothing's absolute, horses for courses........... And for those who have already bought into the system years ago? to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds? A USB grip is hardly going to destroy the M10. Stick a movie button on it and it won't stop people buying a camera when they don't have to buy the grip. It won't eat into SL sales. They are more likely to just hold onto the customer base they have, like me, who are about to walk away from Leica altogether. There are rumoured Noctilux lenses about to drop. That is something I would be most certainly buying if the M's future was one I could use. Instead Leica drop the USB port and lose business. That is aggravating for those who rely on it and poor business practice, IMO. All for a USB port on an optional grip! Me too, it's just another opinion based on a set of needs but discussing opinions is hardly cage rattling, which is what I think you called it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 15, 2017 Share #724 Posted July 15, 2017 And for those who have already bought into the system years ago...They are more likely to just hold onto the customer base they have, like me, who are about to walk away from Leica altogether...People walk in both directions. There are a lot of film era photographers who never really saw the M as addressing their digital needs who are now dusting off their old lenses to use with the M10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #725 Posted July 15, 2017 People walk in both directions. There are a lot of film era photographers who never really saw the M as addressing their digital needs who are now dusting off their old lenses to use with the M10. I can't, for the life of me, imagine that someone wouldn't buy a camera because it has an optional grip with a usb port on it. I have no use or wish to buy the Hasselblad HTS but I still bought the Hasselblad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 15, 2017 Share #726 Posted July 15, 2017 I can't, for the life of me, imagine that someone wouldn't buy a camera because it has an optional grip with a usb port... Me neither. Who's giving that as a reason for not buying pre-M10 digital Ms? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #727 Posted July 15, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Me neither. Who's giving that as a reason for not buying pre-M10 digital Ms? I don't recall anyone who didn't buy an M240 because it had USB on a grip. It's pointless buying an M240 now - spend £5K on a dead end? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhicks Posted July 15, 2017 Share #728 Posted July 15, 2017 It's pointless buying an M240 now - spend £5K on a dead end? The processor is a bit dated and the sensor isn't as up to date but the 240 is hardly a dead end. For how many years are you expecting to use a specific digital M? If it's two or three years then maybe I agree with your point but if you look to not drop $7 large on every few years when the next M n comes out then you'll get to use the 240 system for many years. That's a lot of photos and in your case, videos. If I had M lenses and needed a rangefinder that also shoots video and wanted a Leica body, then I'd get a 240 (MP) and wouldn't look back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted July 15, 2017 Share #729 Posted July 15, 2017 Well, I use the GX8, which is about half the price of the GH5/TL2, and of the same level. And if someone has an M they would need to buy lenses for the GX8, negating any price advantage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted July 15, 2017 Share #730 Posted July 15, 2017 I realise that. My point is all these cameras which are smaller have video that is adequate, some do have 4K from a full frame sensor. The M 240's video was OK, I would be happy with 1080p in the M10. It should be in the one body - the whole point of the M is the decisive moment and readiness. I don't want a TL or an SL. The M, M9, M8 all had USB and now it's gone with no warning. That is very bad for those that rely on it who have heavily invested in the system. Like I said, offering a £4.5K SL body is a very poor and expensive solution to problem that didn't exist. It's like a car manufacturer offering a range of cars - "oh you want windows that open? you need to buy the other model" Put it all back. You have made your point very clear, but I don't find it very persuasive. If I am designing one body that does everything, I would not start with an M. A M in built around a rangefinder and the rangefinder by its nature provides some clear limitations. Other than to make exactly what you want, why would Leica choose the M platform for an all around body that does everything? One reason to add video to the M240 was because they didn't have other bodies at the time, now with other bodies video, IMO, seems better suited for other lines. You have made it clear you disagree, and given that view I agree you should look elsewhere, but if you want a small body and video and full frame I think you have just one choice, Sony. I think you will find other tradeoff there. Now the USB issue I can agree that it would have been good for Leica to include that ability and I do expect we will get a grip at some point and that grip will include USB. My guess is that they will also continue the M240 line with video and a USB at some point, but I am much less sure of that guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 15, 2017 Share #731 Posted July 15, 2017 And if someone has an M they would need to buy lenses for the GX8, negating any price advantage. Have you looked at the price difference in lenses? If I had to buy a hypothetical 200-800 (AKA 100-400 for MTF) Leica M-V I would probably be looking at 10.000 to 15.000 Euro; the Leica DG Vario-Elmar 100-400 has cost me 1100 Euro... That is about two SL2 cameras... A DG Summilux 15 is about 500 Euro, a Summilux-M 28? 6000 Not to mention the amazing image stabilisation, weatherproofing, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #732 Posted July 15, 2017 You have made your point very clear, but I don't find it very persuasive. If I am designing one body that does everything, I would not start with an M. A M in built around a rangefinder and the rangefinder by its nature provides some clear limitations. Other than to make exactly what you want, why would Leica choose the M platform for an all around body that does everything? One reason to add video to the M240 was because they didn't have other bodies at the time, now with other bodies video, IMO, seems better suited for other lines. You have made it clear you disagree, and given that view I agree you should look elsewhere, but if you want a small body and video and full frame I think you have just one choice, Sony. I think you will find other tradeoff there. Now the USB issue I can agree that it would have been good for Leica to include that ability and I do expect we will get a grip at some point and that grip will include USB. My guess is that they will also continue the M240 line with video and a USB at some point, but I am much less sure of that guess. For me, USB is a fundamental and core requirement, without it I have to move on. I just want an optional grip, that's all. Not so with video. I just consider that a bonus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #733 Posted July 15, 2017 The processor is a bit dated and the sensor isn't as up to date but the 240 is hardly a dead end. For how many years are you expecting to use a specific digital M? If it's two or three years then maybe I agree with your point but if you look to not drop $7 large on every few years when the next M n comes out then you'll get to use the 240 system for many years. That's a lot of photos and in your case, videos. If I had M lenses and needed a rangefinder that also shoots video and wanted a Leica body, then I'd get a 240 (MP) and wouldn't look back. I won't spend another penny on a system I can't upgrade and use in the future. That's a dead end. If the M240 was everything I ever needed for now and the future then I maybe more inclined to agree with you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted July 15, 2017 Share #734 Posted July 15, 2017 I won't spend another penny on a system I can't upgrade and use in the future. That's a dead end. If the M240 was everything I ever needed for now and the future then I maybe more inclined to agree with you. Am I missing something? Has Leica promised the M10 will be technologically upgradable? (I don't mean like the CEO promised for the M8, which got him fired). Otherwise how is the M10 not just as dead an end as the M240 was when it was new? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted July 15, 2017 Share #735 Posted July 15, 2017 Yeah, but if you are an M shooter and already have the M lenses, then of Have you looked at the price difference in lenses? If I had to buy a hypothetical 200-800 (AKA 100-400 for MTF) Leica M-V I would probably be looking at 10.000 to 15.000 Euro; the Leica DG Vario-Elmar 100-400 has cost me 1100 Euro... That is about two SL2 cameras... A DG Summilux 15 is about 500 Euro, a Summilux-M 28? 6000 Not to mention the amazing image stabilisation, weatherproofing, etc. Yeah, but if you are an M shooter and already have M lenses then using the on the T is only the cost of the adapter. A full set of lenses for the panny will definitely cost quite a bit more. I am not disputing that for wildlife the Panny would make sense (so I agree about the 100-400), but for an M10 shooter who wants to add video I think the TL2 is a very strong option and it is cost effective compared to other options as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted July 15, 2017 Share #736 Posted July 15, 2017 For me, USB is a fundamental and core requirement, without it I have to move on. I just want an optional grip, that's all. Not so with video. I just consider that a bonus. And I think if you are at all patient there will be such a grip. The camera hasn't even been out six months yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted July 15, 2017 Share #737 Posted July 15, 2017 For me, USB is a fundamental and core requirement... It's hard to keep up with your 'fundamental' requirements. Weren't you recently threatening to go back to an all film workflow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #738 Posted July 15, 2017 Am I missing something? Has Leica promised the M10 will be technologically upgradable? (I don't mean like the CEO promised for the M8, which got him fired). Otherwise how is the M10 not just as dead an end as the M240 was when it was new? M11, M12, etc. not too difficult to understand the concept of upgrading is it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #739 Posted July 15, 2017 And I think if you are at all patient there will be such a grip. The camera hasn't even been out six months yet. Hope so. But the functionality was removed on the M10 and there is nothing to suggest it will be put back. Leica are speaking and acting like it won't be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 15, 2017 Share #740 Posted July 15, 2017 It's hard to keep up with your 'fundamental' requirements. Weren't you recently threatening to go back to an all film workflow? I'm trying to remember a time when you weren't so abrasive. Relax, my friend. Wanting usb on a digital camera really isn't a big deal. I'm shooting a lot more film, I would love to shoot all film but the chances of that are next to none. Happy weekend to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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