euston Posted March 9, 2017 Share #541 Posted March 9, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) EVF was also a cuckoo in the M nest.... that is a slippery slope which ends up in a keyhole camera. I can envisage the designers of the M10 having a bit of a debate about live view. It is, after all, not really relevant to an M’s core rangefinding and framing technology. However, LV does enhance usability. It does extend the range of lenses that can be used on an M and it does help users who need focusing aids. If there was such a debate, the pragmatic approach evidently won the day, presumably on the grounds that users welcome what LV adds to the camera’s photo-taking ability. The M10’s designers have said that they detected no such enthusiasm for video. I approve of Leica’s pragmatic interpretation of das Wesentliche if it means that the M's usability will continue to improve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 9, 2017 Posted March 9, 2017 Hi euston, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Lord Lucan Posted March 9, 2017 Share #542 Posted March 9, 2017 Sounds like an English car to me. I thought we were mentioning Lada ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted March 9, 2017 Share #543 Posted March 9, 2017 - EVF. No, I didn't expect resolution or size like the SL. But even in bright light the image flickered badly when panning. For a new camera, new processor, and supposedly the best EVF they could offer, this is not good enough. Blackout after shots was still there, at about 1sec. TBH, I might be prepared to live with it if the EVF handled motion better. Hrumph I don't know which firmware the camera you tested was using, but as far as I'm aware the flickering was fixed very early in the day (except in very low light where all EVFs have trouble), and the black out time is now much less than a second. The EVF on the M10 has the same resolution as the one on the Sony A7rii and most other top flight mirrorless cameras, but it's larger than most of them and has much better colour and the same refresh rates. I wouldn't dream of buying an M to use an EVF with (why would I). But whereas, after the gloss had worn off, I never used the EVF with the M240, I still use it a lot with the M10, it's not for sport, but for considered shooting it works well, it would be nice if the blackout time was less (it's actually about 0.75 seconds), but for most purposes that's not bad - the shutter lag is virtually non-existent, the magnification, contrast and colour are all up with the best of the competition. I quite subscribe to the reasons you don't want the camera . . . But I think you're misrepresenting it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 9, 2017 Share #544 Posted March 9, 2017 I'm sure there is room on the M10 for a USB port, and it should not add bulk. Look to the diminished M9's later builds for the lack-of. Considering the unfortunate progression of irrational features in the M after the M9, the M10 seems to be the most rational development platform in line of the philosophy of Leica M. As a former (retired) software/firmware developer in R&D I can imagine Leica engineers reading this site's posts and alternating between rage and laughter. It sucks when we knew what was possible, made it so, and how the dreamer users could not even use it when we made it real. The M10 is the Leica. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey James Posted March 10, 2017 Share #545 Posted March 10, 2017 As a British car owner -more than a dozen over five decades - I cannot say that Paul's remark was unjustified... I remember cartoonist Al Capp's remark about his English car --every part that fell off is of the best British workmanship. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 10, 2017 Share #546 Posted March 10, 2017 Hrumph I don't know which firmware the camera you tested was using, but as far as I'm aware the flickering was fixed very early in the day (except in very low light where all EVFs have trouble), and the black out time is now much less than a second. The EVF on the M10 has the same resolution as the one on the Sony A7rii and most other top flight mirrorless cameras, but it's larger than most of them and has much better colour and the same refresh rates. I wouldn't dream of buying an M to use an EVF with (why would I). But whereas, after the gloss had worn off, I never used the EVF with the M240, I still use it a lot with the M10, it's not for sport, but for considered shooting it works well, it would be nice if the blackout time was less (it's actually about 0.75 seconds), but for most purposes that's not bad - the shutter lag is virtually non-existent, the magnification, contrast and colour are all up with the best of the competition. I quite subscribe to the reasons you don't want the camera . . . But I think you're misrepresenting it! I can only tell it as I saw it. I forgot to check the firmware, but assumed (perhaps mistakenly!) they had the latest version. Unmistakable flicker while panning outside in daylight. I didn't actually measure the blackout time, but it seemed to be one second or a bit under - your 0.75s could be right; as I wrote, I might live with it if the flicker was not so obvious. I agree about the resolution - it's good enough. If I'm misrepresenting the M10, then Leica Mayfair had better get their demo camera sorted! Edit. Further to my take on EVFs. The EVF on the M240 was fine. For a first try, it did all that I wanted it to as an occasional supplement. On the T, for which the EVF is a necessity for normal use, I was disappointed with flicker and blackout. I might have been a buyer otherwise. On the SL it is great, and I concluded Leica had cracked it. Hence my disappointment that the M10's EVF appears to be less responsive than the SL's (I'm less concerned about size and resolution), although it's not my reason for not buying the M10 (it's not vital like the T and SL), Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 10, 2017 Share #547 Posted March 10, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can only tell it as I saw it. I forgot to check the firmware, but assumed (perhaps mistakenly!) they had the latest version. Unmistakable flicker while panning outside in daylight. I didn't actually measure the blackout time, but it seemed to be one second or a bit under - your 0.75s could be right; as I wrote, I might live with it if the flicker was not so obvious. I agree about the resolution - it's good enough. If I'm misrepresenting the M10, then Leica Mayfair had better get their demo camera sorted! I have just checked the OMD EM5-ii (used to be mine, now my wife's). If I look very hard, I can see slight EVF flicker during panning, but it has never bothered me. Although I don't have the two side by side, in the M10 it was immediately noticeable. I don't want to get this out of proportion, but I'm puzzled why your M10 doesn't show it, Jono, and the Mayfair one did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 10, 2017 Share #548 Posted March 10, 2017 I have just checked the OMD EM5-ii (used to be mine, now my wife's). If I look very hard, I can see slight EVF flicker during panning, but it has never bothered me. Although I don't have the two side by side, in the M10 it was immediately noticeable. I don't want to get this out of proportion, but I'm puzzled why your M10 doesn't show it, Jono, and the Mayfair one did. The simple explanation is that the Mayfair one didn't have the updated firmware. Many people noted the flicker before the firmware was updated and I have not seen any one note it since with you being the possible exception. Many people have also noted the absence of flicker since the firmware update. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 10, 2017 Share #549 Posted March 10, 2017 The simple explanation is that the Mayfair one didn't have the updated firmware. Many people noted the flicker before the firmware was updated and I have not seen any one note it since with you being the possible exception. Many people have also noted the absence of flicker since the firmware update. It's certainly an explanation, though you'd think Leica's flagship store here would keep firmware up to date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted March 10, 2017 Share #550 Posted March 10, 2017 No flicker here. I compared the EVF of the SL to the visoflex on the M10 last night. Except for a slight bump in contrast on the SL, both EVFs were very similar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 10, 2017 Share #551 Posted March 10, 2017 It's certainly an explanation, though you'd think Leica's flagship store here would keep firmware up to date. No, I'm not so sure about that. I've come across this before (though not at Leica Mayfair). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted March 13, 2017 Share #552 Posted March 13, 2017 A comment about EVF. On the M240, I find the EVF vital for three applications, all within the normal usage of a M: 1. Checking focus calibration. 2. Using the OUFRO for close-up. 3. Using wide angles (SEM 21 in my case) For these uses, a flickering image while panning is not a problem, and I can manage with the EVF for the M240. But if the EVF for the M10 was smooth and had no blackouts, I would be much more likely to use the M with longer lenses, for which I would currently use the SL. But with longer lenses, all motion is amplified, so any flickering renders it a PITA for this purpose. So the absence of a good EVF keeps the M10 firmly in its comfort zone below 90mm. Since I use M9 and Sony A7.mod side by side, I know M without EVF and using EVF very well. Vital? 1. You can easily check focus calibration on M9. I have a bunch of old lenses and I do it all the time. You do have to use the shutter and take shots. But in a few minutes not only can you know the calibration of any lens, but the "english" needed to compensate. 2. OUFRO I guess you must have EVF for that. I use A7 LOL You are telling us m10 EVF will be worse for OUFRO? 3. I shoot SEM21 all the time on both cameras. I far prefer using the ZI21 OVF to my Sony EVF. Quite a few of use get headaches from the good EVFs, let alone that thing on the 240. In my experience of using them extensively since 2010, an EVF is worse than everything except nothing, as in the case of your OUFRO. It's a tiny TV, and compared to both the M finder, and something like that gorgeous R6 Prism, it's like the difference between TV and reality. It's remarkable you cannot tell the difference in the ORF of the M10 and the M240, as that is very widely noted by people examining the M10. Do you wear glasses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted March 13, 2017 Share #553 Posted March 13, 2017 Come on Carlos, you know very well they can't fit an eight track tape in there, but they can make it play MP3, possibly with a firmware update! Sure it could: take out the bottom plate and slap that tape Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted March 13, 2017 Share #554 Posted March 13, 2017 I am with Leica and Apple in the same position, I wait ! I do not find anything in new products that makes me want to change, I keep my M240 The M10 is definitively not for me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 13, 2017 Share #555 Posted March 13, 2017 Since I use M9 and Sony A7.mod side by side, I know M without EVF and using EVF very well. Vital? 1. You can easily check focus calibration on M9. I have a bunch of old lenses and I do it all the time. You do have to use the shutter and take shots. But in a few minutes not only can you know the calibration of any lens, but the "english" needed to compensate. 2. OUFRO I guess you must have EVF for that. I use A7 LOL You are telling us m10 EVF will be worse for OUFRO? 3. I shoot SEM21 all the time on both cameras. I far prefer using the ZI21 OVF to my Sony EVF. Quite a few of use get headaches from the good EVFs, let alone that thing on the 240. In my experience of using them extensively since 2010, an EVF is worse than everything except nothing, as in the case of your OUFRO. It's a tiny TV, and compared to both the M finder, and something like that gorgeous R6 Prism, it's like the difference between TV and reality. It's remarkable you cannot tell the difference in the ORF of the M10 and the M240, as that is very widely noted by people examining the M10. Do you wear glasses? Ref 1. Sure, you can do it that way. I find it easier and more precise my way. Ref 2. No. I'm not sure how you read that into my post. Ref the appearance of the new ORF. I don't doubt that it is better in the M10 - factually, it is bigger for sure. It wasn't a big concern for me, and it didn't strike me as a big difference in the short term I looked at it. For photography I wear contacts or nothing at all, without problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malvolio Posted March 13, 2017 Share #556 Posted March 13, 2017 I've used the M10 now for a month. Everything about this camera is significantly better than the M240. The size, the focus peaking implementation, the rangefinder, the viewfinder, the menu system, and most importantly the image quality (color, ISO sensitivity). No regrets whatsoever Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted March 13, 2017 Share #557 Posted March 13, 2017 As I hope to collect my M10 tomorrow, I am pleased to read your remarks Malvolio. I am coming from an M9-P, which I will keep. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
justj Posted March 13, 2017 Share #558 Posted March 13, 2017 I certainly will upgrade once my photographic skill excels my camera's abilities. That's why I am still using my Casio. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted March 13, 2017 Share #559 Posted March 13, 2017 As I hope to collect my M10 tomorrow, I am pleased to read your remarks Malvolio. I am coming from an M9-P, which I will keep. Congratulations JohnI hope you enjoy it as much as I think you will! Best Wishes from over here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 15, 2017 Share #560 Posted March 15, 2017 It's certainly an explanation, though you'd think Leica's flagship store here would keep firmware up to date. Update..... I went back to the store: - the firmware in use is the latest - v1.3.4 - the LV display on the rear screen is as smooth as one could wish in panning (e.g. as if I was following a running child). - the EVF display is not as smooth in panning as i would wish. "Slightly jumpy" is the best description I can offer. As I said, I don't own the M10 and (for other reasons) do not expect to buy one (never say never), so I acknowledge that in long term use I might find the EVF acceptable. At present, though, I feel it would irritate me for non-static uses. Fortunately, this is something most people can check for themselves before buying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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