Dirk Mandeville Posted March 5, 2017 Share #441 Posted March 5, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) It was just a reaction and I don't feel a need to limit or inhibit that - photography is my life and my livelihood and I have a deep sense of passion for it. It doesn't bother me what others think of that. But that reaction was short lived and I accept just having to move on yet still feel rather disappointed by it. I think all of us have a deep sense of passion for photography, which is why we spend precious dollars on Leica equipment and precious time discussing it on this forum. I just don't get the doom and gloom and feeling the need "to move on" based on one model release. When Leica released the M240, and I was less than impressed, I didn't feel the need to sell my M9 and lenses and "move on" from Leica, nor the need to complain too much about its faults on the forum. I just kept on happily shooting my M9 and waited to see what Leica came up with down the road. I think the M10 will be well worth that wait. As for Jaapv's comments on the survey, I just don't see how his criticisms are relevant to the discussion. Leica isn't aiming to sell the M10 to the average photographer. The camera is squarely aimed at longtime Leica enthusiasts, of which I would say this forum is pretty representative. Leica may well be trying to expand their market share. But that doesn't mean every product will be aimed at capturing the broader market. Diversity of models aimed at different segments will achieve that goal. But here's the thing. I don't expect anyone complaining about citing the survey results would seriously argue with the general result. Do any of you really believe that the numbers of those who absolutely must have video in an M amount to any more than a very small percentage of potential M purchasers? I'm talking about actual potential purchasers. The people who absolutely would buy the M10 but for the fact that it lacks video. Do you think the survey is that far off in predicting that percentage? If anything, I think it over-estimates the actual real-world percentage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 5, 2017 Posted March 5, 2017 Hi Dirk Mandeville, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Paul J Posted March 5, 2017 Share #442 Posted March 5, 2017 I think all of us have a deep sense of passion for photography, which is why we spend precious dollars on Leica equipment and precious time discussing it on this forum. I just don't get the doom and gloom and feeling the need "to move on" based on one model release. When Leica released the M240, and I was less than impressed, I didn't feel the need to sell my M9 and lenses and "move on" from Leica, nor the need to complain too much about its faults on the forum. I just kept on happily shooting my M9 and waited to see what Leica came up with down the road. I think the M10 will be well worth that wait. As for Jaapv's comments on the survey, I just don't see how his criticisms are relevant to the discussion. Leica isn't aiming to sell the M10 to the average photographer. The camera is squarely aimed at longtime Leica enthusiasts, of which I would say this forum is pretty representative. Leica may well be trying to expand their market share. But that doesn't mean every product will be aimed at capturing the broader market. Diversity of models aimed at different segments will achieve that goal. But here's the thing. I don't expect anyone complaining about citing the survey results would seriously argue with the general result. Do any of you really believe that the numbers of those who absolutely must have video in an M amount to any more than a very small percentage of potential M purchasers? I'm talking about actual potential purchasers. The people who absolutely would buy the M10 but for the fact that it lacks video. Do you think the survey is that far off in predicting that percentage? If anything, I think it over-estimates the actual real-world percentage. Well there is hardly a sense of gloom and doom but I totally get the feeling to move on. Leica has said for tethering they have the SL for that now. I don't want the SL. Why hang around? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted March 5, 2017 Share #443 Posted March 5, 2017 I wish you success and happiness in your new system choice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 5, 2017 Share #444 Posted March 5, 2017 Well there is hardly a sense of gloom and doom but I totally get the feeling to move on. Leica has said for tethering they have the SL for that now. I don't want the SL. Why hang around? They also have the M240 for now, so there is an M option with tethering. If you need an upgrade and can't wait it is understandable to move on and in your case Paul, I think there are several better options for a studio camera with tethering. I just don't think it is accurate or fair to say Leica abandoned you and others who need tethering with the M10. It is way too early to know if that is true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 5, 2017 Share #445 Posted March 5, 2017 Do any of you really believe that the numbers of those who absolutely must have video in an M amount to any more than a very small percentage of potential M purchasers? I'm talking about actual potential purchasers. The people who absolutely would buy the M10 but for the fact that it lacks video. Do you think the survey is that far off in predicting that percentage? If anything, I think it over-estimates the actual real-world percentage. You're guessing, influenced by your preferences. I could equally suggest that the percentage who would refuse to buy any M that had video are also tiny. But I'd be guessing as well. And I don't mean those who choose the no video option where a choice is available (e.g. M240 vs M262). I mean those who would never have bought a M10 if it had video. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2017 Share #446 Posted March 5, 2017 They also have the M240 for now, so there is an M option with tethering. If you need an upgrade and can't wait it is understandable to move on and in your case Paul, I think there are several better options for a studio camera with tethering. I just don't think it is accurate or fair to say Leica abandoned you and others who need tethering with the M10. It is way too early to know if that is true. No, the M was perfect for what I do. Buying an M240 only prolongs the inevitable. Unless Leica change their mind, which is possible and why I am here discussing it, there is no tethering on the M and they have the SL for that now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 5, 2017 Share #447 Posted March 5, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) No, the M was perfect for what I do. Buying an M240 only prolongs the inevitable. Unless Leica change their mind, which is possible and why I am here discussing it, there is no tethering on the M and they have the SL for that now. Paul, You don't know whether Leica has made a decision on whether they will offer USB in the M10 generation of cameras--unless you have some secret messages you haven't revealed--so it is inaccurate to say unless Leica changes their mind. We don't know the mind of Leica and I don't think is helpful to assume we do. There is tethering on the M right now--in the M240--and we have no way to know whether they will offer it in the M10 generation of cameras at this early stage. To base your reasoning and decisions on your guess that they will not as if it is a fait accompli is illogical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem331 Posted March 5, 2017 Share #448 Posted March 5, 2017 Interesting discussion. Didn't know what tethering is. Didn't know that my M240P could tether. I can see that it can be an useful function. But I would prefer to have a hotshoe that can function with EVF first. Pretty much gave up using M as studio camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2017 Share #449 Posted March 5, 2017 Paul, You don't know whether Leica has made a decision on whether they will offer USB in the M10 generation of cameras--unless you have some secret messages you haven't revealed--so it is inaccurate to say unless Leica changes their mind. We don't know the mind of Leica and I don't think is helpful to assume we do. There is tethering on the M right now--in the M240--and we have no way to know whether they will offer it in the M10 generation of cameras at this early stage. To base your reasoning and decisions on your guess that they will not as if it is a fait accompli is illogical. That is what they told me. I have already told you that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 5, 2017 Share #450 Posted March 5, 2017 You're guessing, influenced by your preferences. I could equally suggest that the percentage who would refuse to buy any M that had video are also tiny. But I'd be guessing as well. And I don't mean those who choose the no video option where a choice is available (e.g. M240 vs M262). I mean those who would never have bought a M10 if it had video. Perhaps.... But according to Leica, their own customer feedback response regarding video in the M showed that the majority of M users either specifically preferred video be omitted, or had no preference either way. Only a few showed a preference for wanting video in the M. Considering that, their decision makes perfect sense. Why continue to put resources into developing a feature that is not really wanted by the majority of your customer base, especially when you have a better platform on which to develop said feature? Sure, you are going to anger a few, as evidenced by this thread. But it is not likely to make a dent in sales, and you move forward with two distinct platforms which are ideally designed to capture different segments of the market. Leica are not thinking of the M10 in isolation like we tend to do. They are thinking of their entire portfolio of products and how to distinguish them and develop them into the future to capture larger overall market share. I think video on the M was a dead-end the moment of its introduction. The platform is just not really suited for development of video over time, and trying to do so would inevitably impact the desirability of the camera for still photography (which has always been the hallmark of the M line). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 5, 2017 Share #451 Posted March 5, 2017 That is what they told me. I have already told you that. Paul, what you haven't done is share your special message. If they simply said, "we have no concrete plans to add USB tethering to the M10 and if you want that you should look at the SL." That is a very different thing than saying, "we have decided we won't add USB tethering to the M10 generation of cameras." So exactly what they said and what you are interpreting is important. So, I will reserve judgment until I see what they actually said. I have serious doubts that they told you about their plans for the M10 generation of cameras, whether they will ever make a grip for the camera, and exactly whether USB will be an option in any future variant. Your response and reasoning requires that sort of information, however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2017 Share #452 Posted March 5, 2017 Interesting discussion. Didn't know what tethering is. Didn't know that my M240P could tether. I can see that it can be an useful function. But I would prefer to have a hotshoe that can function with EVF first. Pretty much gave up using M as studio camera. Yeah it's very useful. So useful that it becomes necessary for some things. The M240, in one optional grip, had USB plus the capability to have EVF and Flash. So it doesn't even need to be a case of having one before the other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2017 Share #453 Posted March 5, 2017 Paul, what you haven't done is share your special message. If they simply said, "we have no concrete plans to add USB tethering to the M10 and if you want that you should look at the SL." That is a very different thing than saying, "we have decided we won't add USB tethering to the M10 generation of cameras." So exactly what they said and what you are interpreting is important. So, I will reserve judgment until I see what they actually said. I have serious doubts that they told you about their plans for the M10 generation of cameras, whether they will ever make a grip for the camera, and exactly whether USB will be an option in any future variant. Your response and reasoning requires that sort of information, however. You don't have to take my word for it, you can save yourself the anguish and ask them yourself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 5, 2017 Share #454 Posted March 5, 2017 If you don't believe it, you can save yourself the anguish and ask them yourself. Not sure I understand your need for evasiveness here, but if you are not willing to share exactly what you were told and by whom then it's hard to give it a lot of credence. It's not really important though. You feel like you have enough information to justify your decision and it is your decision to make. There's no sense in any of us trying to change your mind about it. In the future, you may find out you were right or you may find out you were wrong. Such is life. Regardless, I hope you find a solution that works well for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dem331 Posted March 5, 2017 Share #455 Posted March 5, 2017 Yeah it's very useful. So useful that it becomes necessary for some things.The M240, in one optional grip, had USB plus the capability to have EVF and Flash. So it doesn't even need to be a case of having one before the other. Yes, I had forgotten about that. I remember now that I considered getting one but thought that the refresh speed of the EVF would still be too nuch of a hindrance. Maybe I can pick one up cheap and try it out. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 5, 2017 Share #456 Posted March 5, 2017 Not sure I understand your need for evasiveness here, but if you are not willing to share exactly what you were told and by whom then it's hard to give it a lot of credence. It's not really important though. You feel like you have enough information to justify your decision and it is your decision to make. There's no sense in any of us trying to change your mind about it. In the future, you may find out you were right or you may find out you were wrong. Such is life. Regardless, I hope you find a solution that works well for you. I'm not fussed about credence but thanks for the well wishes all the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted March 5, 2017 Share #457 Posted March 5, 2017 You don't have to take my word for it, you can save yourself the anguish and ask them yourself. I don't feel any anguish and I don't want to waste anyone's time at Leica in asking them a question that has no bearing whatsoever on my decision to get the camera or on my use of the camera. If you don't want to share what they told you then that is fine, but I remain very skeptical that they told you their plans for the M10 generation of cameras including the variants. I wouldn't even ask Leica about such plans even if they were relevant to me because for good reason they are likely to and probably should keep those decisions close to the vest. Good luck with whatever you decide and as I said I think you have a lot of good options out there and if Leica not including USB in the M10 is enough to cause the ire for you that it did, then I suspect Leica as a company will be a bad fit moving forward anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 5, 2017 Share #458 Posted March 5, 2017 I have asked Leica for things in the past, and they have been forthcoming. Paul's comment that Leica has no concrete plans to include tethering in future M cameras, and he should look to the SL, is exactly the sort of thing Leica would say, and is consistent with the statements made by Leica product managers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 5, 2017 Share #459 Posted March 5, 2017 Paul's comment that Leica has no concrete plans to include tethering in future M cameras, and he should look to the SL, is exactly the sort of thing Leica would say, and is consistent with the statements made by Leica product managers. Honestly, it also seems consistent with the design and expected use of the two cameras. The SL is well-designed to work as a studio camera. The M10 is well-designed to work as a compact field camera. The problem is that Paul wants the features of a studio camera in the body of a compact field camera. Leica doesn't seem inclined to provide that, and is differentiating between the two products moving forward: an M system for all the traditional uses for a rangefinder camera, and the SL system for studio work, video, or SLR type work where autofocus is necessary. Time will tell whether this strategy works out for them or whether they choose to alter their course at some point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 5, 2017 Share #460 Posted March 5, 2017 The problem is that Paul wants the features of a studio camera in the body of a compact field camera. Don't we all, in one form or other : Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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