euston Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1001 Posted August 8, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think it’s quite likely that Leica will develop the live view camera that some of you are hoping for. I just hope that that they call it something other than M and allow it to go forward on its own development trajectory. That will leave the M as the simplest but most challenging of photographic tools for those who like it that way. In the meantime, the M10 is a reasonable step along the way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 8, 2017 Posted August 8, 2017 Hi euston, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
almoore Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1002 Posted August 8, 2017 I don't see any problem in the actual product strategy of Leica. "Das Wesentliche" (= M10) is a clear separator between M and SL; clearer than before. I really like it a lot! Exactly, the M does what its intended to do very well. When somebody complains it's not the best camera for an 800mm lens then they don't deserve to be taken terribly seriously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1003 Posted August 8, 2017 That's a reasonable summation of my position. I use a 28mm Elmarit and 35 and 50mm Summicrons that I can focus effortlessly with an M. I don't need anything longer or wider, but if I did I'd use a more appropriate camera. It's absurd that you're citing the difficulty of focusing an 800mm lens on an M as a shortcoming. It's not the camera for you. I am rather amused So in your opinion a Leica M is only built to use 28mm, 35mm and 50mm? so why did Leica make 16mm to 135mm? And you would buy another camera to use anything wider than 28mm or longer than 50mm?? I really have to MULL on this. A US8,000 camera (where I am now) just to use 3 lenses. Very smart move. I bought 8 M lenses on purchasing the M10, from 16mm to 135mm. I am sure there are others who have bought multiple Leica lenses on purchasing the M10 So with your philosophy Leica would have lost sales of 5 lenses. A great way to do business. Now perhaps you would like to suggest what I should do with a wider than 35mm and longer than 50mm lenses? Sell them or buy another camera body? Why pick on just the 800mm? what about all those R and M lenses longer than 50mm? R180mm Apo - lot's of M users' favorite. 280mm? JAAP wrote an article on Safari with Leica M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1004 Posted August 8, 2017 I am rather amused So in your opinion a Leica M is only built to use 28mm, 35mm and 50mm? ...And you would buy another camera to use anything wider than 28mm or longer than 50mm?? I really have to MULL on this. A US8,000 camera (where I am now) just to use 3 lenses.... Why pick on just the 800mm? what about all those R and M lenses longer than 50mm? R180mm Apo - lot's of M users' favorite. 280mm? JAAP wrote an article on Safari with Leica M. No, an M isn't just built to use lenses between 28 and 50, but that range is the camera's strength. I don't need a lens wider than 28, but when I've needed lenses longer than a 50, yes, I've used more appropriate cameras. I single out the 800 because it's the most extreme lens you cited, but it wouldn't cross my mind to use a 180mm lens on an M either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1005 Posted August 8, 2017 No, an M isn't just built to use lenses between 28 and 50, but that range is the camera's strength. I don't need a lens wider than 28, but when I've needed lenses longer than a 50, yes, I've used more appropriate cameras. I single out the 800 because it's the most extreme lens you cited, but it wouldn't cross my mind to use a 180mm lens on an M either. you nitpick on the extreme and forget the other points. Not a good way for a logical discussion. I indicated a range to 800mm You seem to base your argument on what you and only you need. what about others who wants to use existing M lenses out of 28-50mm? bad luck to them I guess. Live with the poor keepers rate Forget about the 800mm. How many M users can put their hand on their heart and say I can get 90% acuuracy focussing my Noctilux using the Rangefinder? The 50mm is within the camera's strength is it not? Oh by the way did you buy the M10? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1006 Posted August 8, 2017 I've made clear to you that I'd no more use a 180 than an 800 with an M. Yes, I'm basing my position on my needs, just as your position comes from your somewhat strange needs. The Noctilux isn't a lens that interests me, so I really don't care what success rate people have using it wide open. Although it's worth bearing in mind that it offers apertures other than f0.95, and at most of those apertures it's not going to be harder to focus than a Summicron. I haven't bought the M10 yet, but to me it's the first digital M that's desirable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1007 Posted August 8, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes you're absolutely right! UWW is no problem due to zone focussing. I think beyond 90mm the RF is not the best solution. But R-lens ownes can of course use their stuff with Liveview via dsiplay or external EVF. Or switch to Leica SL. I don't see any problem in the actual product strategy of Leica. "Das Wesentliche" (= M10) is a clear separator between M and SL; clearer than before. I really like it a lot! Live view is an option very similar in use to an EVF Looks like using a $6500 (or $8000 where I am) iphone though For some illogical reason I never use live view - do you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1008 Posted August 8, 2017 I've made clear to you that I'd no more use a 180 than an 800 with an M. Yes, I'm basing my position on my needs, just as your position comes from your somewhat strange needs. The Noctilux isn't a lens that interests me, so I really don't care what success rate people have using it wide open. Although it's worth bearing in mind that it offers apertures other than f0.95, and at most of those apertures it's not going to be harder to focus than a Summicron. I haven't bought the M10 yet, but to me it's the first digital M that's desirable. Dear Almoore, I am so sorry to say that this argument is rather selfish. It is all about what you need and other people's needs are of no significance. Leica as a company needs to satisfy a broader base of customers - not everyone but a brader base to survive. And after painting such eloquence on the M10 you have not supported leica by buying it? A company dose not SURVIVE on PRAISE alone it needs sales Please support Leica by buying one. You won't regret it. The M10 was the camera that brought me back to Leica after a 17 year wait Oh I don't have strange needs. My current range is from 16mm to 200mm (with an R apo- adapter bringing it to 400mm) I am happy that I can use the add on EVF for all my lenses I can also assure you that should I decide one day to buy an R 800mm I will be able to shoot it with my EVF adapter on. What people who want a built in EVF or another model with EVF only are saying is it will be more convenient - and are also asking for a higher resolution EVF. But the current EVF is adequate for me. On the other hand your points are all over the place."note that there are other apertures other than 0.95". RIGHT so Leica makes a lens for show. Not to be bought and used - too hard to focus. All because you are not interested in it. I use it with my EVF and I have little problems with focusing. The lens is a bit heavy though. Goes to show the EVF has a place in the M range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1009 Posted August 8, 2017 It's very strange, isn't it? Leica finally creates a digital M with the tactile qualities and refinement of a film M and the response is to bemoan the fact it has an optical viewfinder and rangefinder focusing. It's almost as if people were buying Ms despite, rather than because of, their elegance and simplicity. Like Peter earlier in the thread, you have completely missed the point of an EVF version. Why not go back and read the points made properly and then contribute in a meaningful way? In the past, when we have got to this point, most of us have simply given up in frustration following comments from some members who either deliberately, or through not actually reading the posts properly, come out with some inane reply and then the point is lost until the next time it is brought up by someone. Please. Go back, read the comments properly and then make your point, because this post shows that you, too, have completely missed the point here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
almoore Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1010 Posted August 8, 2017 This is a good point to bow out and allow those who want the M to be something else entirely to carry on unhindered. Although why stop at an EVF, why not also fit wheels and a toaster to the M11? The more functionality the better... I am so sorry to say that this argument is rather selfish. It is all about what you need and other people's needs are of no significance. Bill Livingston: Like Peter earlier in the thread, you have completely missed the point...go back and read the points made properly and then contribute in a meaningful way?...Go back, read the comments properly and then make your point, because this post shows that you, too, have completely missed the point here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1011 Posted August 8, 2017 I've made clear to you that I'd no more use a 180 than an 800 with an M. Yes, I'm basing my position on my needs, just as your position comes from your somewhat strange needs. The Noctilux isn't a lens that interests me, so I really don't care what success rate people have using it wide open. Although it's worth bearing in mind that it offers apertures other than f0.95, and at most of those apertures it's not going to be harder to focus than a Summicron. I haven't bought the M10 yet, but to me it's the first digital M that's desirable. Unfortunately Ozytripper, this is precisely the attitude that will end the M camera going forward. Some people maintain their position based entirely on their own needs with absolutely no thought to other, potential, users... and yet take this attitude having not even bought a digital camera? Almoore, just as you said, quite rudely as it happens, to someone just one or two pages back, its hard to take your opinion seriously too, given that it comes from someone who it seems doesn’t own a digital Leica... so how can you speak with any authority for new users and future M customers? I was hoping for a sensible discussion on a point very many of us feel strongly about and, as usual, ‘the usual suspects’ come steaming in defending an action that we haven’t even suggested. No-one is suggesting getting rid of, or changing, the OVF rangefinder M for an EVF! We all want that camera to be further refined along the current lines and I WANT to see an M11, an M12 and so on over the coming years as I like using the rangefinder M What is being suggested is we have an identical looking, identically functioning (ie, same metering, same menu options, same manual focussing, SAME M MOUNT (otherwise it’s pointless)... just an EVF mounted within the body, rather than in the accessory shoe above. And as high a quality EVF as possible. It will gain Leica more users and customers, it will give many advantages to users of wider than 28 and longer than 50 to use their wonderful, and expensive, M lenses without resorting to accessory finders or missing focus all the time. And most importantly, by gaining more customers, we secure the M camera for the future... at least those of us who actually buy new Leica cameras and lenses do... because it is US who contribute directly to Leicas bottom line... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1012 Posted August 8, 2017 ...For some illogical reason I never use live view - do you? No, but YOU were talking about 800mm lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1013 Posted August 8, 2017 This is a good point to bow out and allow those who want the M to be something else entirely to carry on unhindered. Although why stop at an EVF, why not also fit wheels and a toaster to the M11? The more functionality the better... Again, you have missed the point... or are you being deliberately obtuse? Or maybe it is simple rudeness... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1014 Posted August 8, 2017 Thanks Bill, very eloquently summarized. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1015 Posted August 8, 2017 No, but YOU were talking about 800mm lenses I don't use live view. Period. But I would use my EVF on an 800mm R lens Just need to find one cheap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1016 Posted August 8, 2017 Unfortunately Ozytripper, this is precisely the attitude that will end the M camera going forward. Some people maintain their position based entirely on their own needs with absolutely no thought to other, potential, users... and yet take this attitude having not even bought a digital camera? Almoore, just as you said, quite rudely as it happens, to someone just one or two pages back, its hard to take your opinion seriously too, given that it comes from someone who it seems doesn’t own a digital Leica... so how can you speak with any authority for new users and future M customers? I was hoping for a sensible discussion on a point very many of us feel strongly about and, as usual, ‘the usual suspects’ come steaming in defending an action that we haven’t even suggested. No-one is suggesting getting rid of, or changing, the OVF rangefinder M for an EVF! We all want that camera to be further refined along the current lines and I WANT to see an M11, an M12 and so on over the coming years as I like using the rangefinder M What is being suggested is we have an identical looking, identically functioning (ie, same metering, same menu options, same manual focussing, SAME M MOUNT (otherwise it’s pointless)... just an EVF mounted within the body, rather than in the accessory shoe above. And as high a quality EVF as possible. It will gain Leica more users and customers, it will give many advantages to users of wider than 28 and longer than 50 to use their wonderful, and expensive, M lenses without resorting to accessory finders or missing focus all the time. And most importantly, by gaining more customers, we secure the M camera for the future... at least those of us who actually buy new Leica cameras and lenses do... because it is US who contribute directly to Leicas bottom line... Yes, but the questions one must ask are: Will it gain enough customers to cover R&D? How many of those customers would otherwise have bought an M? Or even an SL? In other words, is such a camera economically viable? I suspect not, despite it being attractive for some users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1017 Posted August 8, 2017 Yes, but the questions one must ask are: Will it gain enough customers to cover R&D? How many of those customers would otherwise have bought an M? Or even an SL? In other words, is such a camera economically viable? I suspect not, despite it being attractive for some users. JAAP, I am not a betting man but I will wager you that an M with Hybrid EVF will outsell anything that Leica has come up with till now I am not a technical guy but have been a marketer/business driver all my life. My predictions over the past few years were Q will be a success T let's not even go there SL - will end up like the R series maybe in a shorter time frame (if Leica sticks to the current formula) M10 - I put my money where my mouth is S - I have not idea (not into medium format so I won't comment) For the SL to survive -keep the size of the camera body down -make smaller lenses -put aperture rings back on the lenses The Q will fade away then. Leica will end up with just the M and the SL and maybe the D series for the point and shoot customers until the segment is killed off by phone cameras in a few years from now anyway So consolidated R&D in 2 systems (oh maybe the S too). Everyone is happy and Leica will be very profitable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1018 Posted August 8, 2017 Yes, but the questions one must ask are: Will it gain enough customers to cover R&D? How many of those customers would otherwise have bought an M? Or even an SL? In other words, is such a camera economically viable? I suspect not, despite it being attractive for some users. But Leica HAVE beeen looking at this, hence to patent on that hybrid viewfinder/rangefinder. So they obviously understand that the M has to evolve. Would this, or any other M option be successful? The honest answer is, no one knows, either way. Look at what happened to the M5? Stunning camera in theory... but it didn’t look like an M and so wasn’t really as successful as it deserved to be... yet users of the M5 today could argue it was the best film M of all. Leica messed that up because they failed to understand the requirements of their customers... the traditional Leica customer tends to be very conservative and resistant to change and new customers find the cost of entry to be pretty much a barrier, so it’s always difficult for Leica to predict sales. Hence the vast numbers of used Leica owners on Leica forum... conservative and buying established cameras... and yet the cost of entry is much more acceptable. But not truly reflective of the vast majority of potential Leica owners out there. It’s their opinion that matters... not ours! (Although I DID buy my M240P new, direct from Leica Mayfair, along with some lenses and a few accessories, so I count myself as a contributing Leica owner...) I suspect it would be very successful given the comments I have received from both users and non-Leica users. The main barrier to Leica ownership seems to be cost of entry... these things are not cheap! But taking that out of the equation, I think it would be a much more successful version of the M camera than you would think, maybe even the dominant version within a very few years. But that is Leicas job to test and to decide on the way forward for the M... I think it is an inevitable step anyway, so the sooner it’s done the better... and I don’t want a hybrid - at least I don’t think I do. I quite like the purity of one or the other and to give the customers a choice. And I love the fact they would be indistinguishable until you looked through the viewfinder... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1019 Posted August 8, 2017 Actually, I think the patent was meant to block the attempts by Konost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted August 8, 2017 Share #1020 Posted August 8, 2017 Actually, I think the patent was meant to block the attempts by Konost. Possibly. We simply don't know. It wouldn't surprise me though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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