Dirk Mandeville Posted February 12, 2017 Share #121 Posted February 12, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm sure you're right that most customers are quite happy to see the divergence between the M and the SL. But not everyone is and I believe this thread was supposed to be an opportunity for the disappointed minority to express their views. Peter, the O.P. expressed no such limitation in the original post. He simply stated his views on why he wouldn't upgrade to the M10. Some supported his perspective while others stated contrary views and the thread has evolved from there. I don't expect my opinion on the subject is definitive, but it is relevant to the discussion and I will freely share it. Others may agree or disagree as they want. (That's kind of the purpose of these forums, is it not?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 12, 2017 Posted February 12, 2017 Hi Dirk Mandeville, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Peter H Posted February 12, 2017 Share #122 Posted February 12, 2017 Peter, the O.P. expressed no such limitation in the original post. He simply stated his views on why he wouldn't upgrade to the M10. Some supported his perspective while others stated contrary views and the thread has evolved from there. I don't expect my opinion on the subject is definitive, but it is relevant to the discussion and I will freely share it. Others may agree or disagree as they want. (That's kind of the purpose of these forums, is it not?)Yes. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't express your opinion. Im just trying to look at it from a different point of view, (as are you) particularly with regard to your "short-sighted" observation. I'm lucky. I have no interest in having video in my stills camera. And to be honest Leica have done a much better job with the M10 than I feared they would when the SL was announced. And I have no interest in the SL, so I get virtually all I want in one camera. But I do sympathise with those who feel disappointed with the M10. Having been an M user for so many years and followed its development with enthusiasm, I wouldn't want to be in a position of finding the newest model disappointing. And I still have some reservations about Leica's future intentions regarding keeping the M line as up to date a camera as they are capable of, within the parameters of being a manual focus rangefinder, but that's another story. For now, the M10 suits me fine. But some of the concerns others have seem perfectly reasonable to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2017 Share #123 Posted February 12, 2017 When something like USB is taken away, something that prevents you using the camera you've been using for a long time, in the way you need, then for many reasons it's really bad. It's not just as simple as using something else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sully Posted February 12, 2017 Share #124 Posted February 12, 2017 Thank you Leica... for saving me so much money lately. The Q camera does not have interchangeable lenses, so, I didn't have to buy it....Saved $4250. (I'm worried about the auto-focus TL Summicrons....That could easily lead to a TL mount Q camera or really nice lenses to use on my SL or T). The M10 does not do video, so, I didn't have to buy it...Saved $6595. (Future M240 upgrade could be dangerous). And since now I only shoot in monochrome mode with my M240, I don't have to buy a MM 246 ...Saved $7450.. (Yes, I know conversion is inferior, but I have lowered my standards since becoming a pensioner. I also couldn't see a huge difference on test prints from each camera...Mono was better, but not $7450 better). TOTAL SAVED:.......... $18, 295 Sully's pensioner wife is very happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 12, 2017 Share #125 Posted February 12, 2017 I understand your perspective, Peter. I guess I am a little jaded regarding video. For years, I have also shot Canon DSLRs. With the 5dMk.II, there were some limitations on the stills capabilities, particularly with regards to number of frames you could auto-bracket. As I was experimenting with HDR at the time, this was an important feature to me. Many users were begging for this to be fixed. And it would have been a simple firmware fix. But every firmware update provided a host of new upgrades to video features, while auto-bracketing was ignored (and this on a supposedly pro level DSLR). I had to wait years and then finally buy the next generation 5dMk.III, in order to get the "simple" firmware upgrade I and many others wanted, because Canon was too focused on upgrading video features while ignoring the needs of still photographers. This was a lesson to me of the problems that arise when a product tries to be too many things to too many people. Jack of all trades and master of none. And this is why I am quite happy with Leica's decision to focus the M on still photography. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted February 12, 2017 Share #126 Posted February 12, 2017 When something like USB is taken away, something that prevents you using the camera you've been using for a long time, in the way you need, then for many reasons it's really bad. It's not just as simple as using something else. Send your M (Typ 240) in. It must be broken if the USB stopped working all of a sudden. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2017 Share #127 Posted February 12, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Send your M (Typ 240) in. It must be broken if the USB stopped working all of a sudden. Well I hope the sarcasm is out of fun and not to mock. That is a short terms solution Philip. And then what? in 10 years time? 15 years time? How will you get the benefits of the M10, M11, M12 while still having to use an M240? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted February 12, 2017 Share #128 Posted February 12, 2017 The answer to that one is: Because of the slimming down oF the body the main board electronics have been miniaturised and built in to such an extent that the heat generated by the processor and sensor cannot be dissipated. The whole spiel about the users don't want it is a it of marketing spin. Come on Jaap, and the iPhone can record 4k? Give me a break. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 12, 2017 Share #129 Posted February 12, 2017 That is a short terms solution Philip. And then what? in 10 years time? 15 years time? How will you get the benefits of the M10, M11, M12 while still having to use an M240? I am curious. Why do you think that USB is necessary moving forward? Do you not think that advances in wifi connectivity will replace the need for wired tethering? Perhaps it's not fully functional for your needs yet, but with firmware updates or with the next model it may very well completely replace the need for USB. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 12, 2017 Share #130 Posted February 12, 2017 Come on Jaap, and the iPhone can record 4k? Give me a break. Yes, that full-frame sensor on the iPhone is absolutely amazing! Oh, wait.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2017 Share #131 Posted February 12, 2017 I am curious. Why do you think that USB is necessary moving forward? Do you not think that advances in wifi connectivity will replace the need for wired tethering? Perhaps it's not fully functional for your needs yet, but with firmware updates or with the next model it may very well completely replace the need for USB. If it does there will be no argument from me. I would actually prefer wireless transfer but we are long way off that to the point it replaces the stability and speed of a reliable hardware tether. So why on earth kill this functionality in the meantime? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edw Posted February 12, 2017 Share #132 Posted February 12, 2017 If it does there will be no argument from me. I would actually prefer wireless transfer but we are long way off that to the point it replaces the stability and speed of a reliable hardware tether. So why on earth kill this functionality in the meantime? There is an accessory connector under the M10's baseplate; a handgrip with a physical connector or two doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. Who knows, maybe even a second battery compartment. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted February 12, 2017 Share #133 Posted February 12, 2017 I miss the whole rangefinder in the Sony design. How can they miss it while Leica can at almost the same size? Where is the Sony mega R&D budget going to? Confused. [emoji6] Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Pro I have no idea what this means and how it relates to my post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted February 12, 2017 Share #134 Posted February 12, 2017 I have no idea what this means and how it relates to my post.It does not relate to you but to the discussion about Leica being a small company and all the big players being so innovative blablabla while in fact they are not. Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Pro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2017 Share #135 Posted February 12, 2017 There is an accessory connector under the M10's baseplate; a handgrip with a physical connector or two doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. Who knows, maybe even a second battery compartment. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk The M240 Had an electronic connector port for the grip under the base plate. The M10 as far as I am aware, does not. I would love to be proved wrong on that though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edw Posted February 12, 2017 Share #136 Posted February 12, 2017 The M240 Had an electronic connector port for the grip under the base plate. The M10 as far as I am aware, does not. I would love to be proved wrong on that though. On the M10 I physically examined, there was indeed a connector. It is under the panel where the "insert SD cards this way" pictogramme is, which had been removed. What Leica's plans are, I have no idea. Actual real life experiences seem to take a back seat to authoritative speculation in Internet forums, so I totally understand if the wrongness of your awareness remains unproved. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted February 12, 2017 Share #137 Posted February 12, 2017 Yes, that full-frame sensor on the iPhone is absolutely amazing! Oh, wait.... Touche. But the M10 has the same processing power as the M240. I maintain that video was left out deliberately, and I will go as far as to say that it might be implemented again in a future M10P generation. So Dirk, let me replace my iPhone example with Leica Q. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 12, 2017 Share #138 Posted February 12, 2017 On the M10 I physically examined, there was indeed a connector. It is under the panel where the "insert SD cards this way" pictogramme is, which had been removed. What Leica's plans are, I have no idea. Actual real life experiences seem to take a back seat to authoritative speculation in Internet forums, so I totally understand if the wrongness of your awareness remains unproved. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk That is news to me and also not what Leica have said themselves. ie. there will be no tether and people have to buy the M240 if they want that. Are you saying there is a connector underneath this SD engraving/panel? Does the panel come off to reveal a connector? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/269227-m10-sorry-no/?do=findComment&comment=3211101'>More sharing options...
David Monkhouse Posted February 12, 2017 Share #139 Posted February 12, 2017 People are short-sighted by nature and think in terms of what can this or that camera do right now. Leica has to think longer term. They are developing platforms that will progress over time. They are surely already planning the upgrades for the M11 and SL II. And they have decided to draw a line in the sand with video. Video will always be crippled on the M system, so they have decided to return that system to the essentials of photography, to basically try to make the best rangefinder camera for stills photography that they can make. Nothing more and nothing less. And they will focus their design and development on that goal. I applaud that decision and I expect the majority of their customers are fine with it. Truly, Leica is damned if they do and damned if they don't. The people complaining in this thread that they don't provide video on the M are all saying: "I don't mind if it's crippled; I just want the option to shoot some short video clips. Why can't they just give me that?" But that's just not how it works in the real world. If they include it, then all the reviewers are going to discuss is how poorly implemented the video is. There will be tons of forum threads just like this complaining about the limitations. Why can't Leica give us longer shooting times, 4K, HDMI ports, etc. ad nauseum. The SL can do it, why not the M? There's not really any technical limitations. It's a $7000 camera, for crying out loud. Why can't we have better video? All the same arguments that are being made now for including crippled video will be made for improving video functionality. It's inevitable. All of this takes the Leica design and development team away from focusing on their vision of the M camera system: to make the best instrument for stills photography that they can create. This is why they have drawn a line in the sand and won't give you crippled video capability on an M. It is designed to do one thing exceedingly well. Nothing superfluous to that objective. If you want a hybrid camera that shoots video too, then they made the SL just for you. And the video functions on the SL will be developed and refined over time. It makes perfect sense from a product development standpoint. Those of us that solely shoot still photography are thrilled that time, efforts and resources aren't being wasted designing and implementing a feature we will never use. And if I absolutely must shoot a video clip? I'll pull out my iPhone and shoot one. Hallelujah... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted February 12, 2017 Share #140 Posted February 12, 2017 In the end, I will end up buying an M10. I am taking the SL for another test drive, but I just don't see myself carrying around a heavier and bigger camera. I also agree that video will never be perfect on an M camera, but one is allowed to complain and utter their disappointment. It's what the forum is for and if we didn't do it sometimes, we wouldn't have anything to argue about. Let's face it, we all love Leicas, Ms in particular, so we have to quarrel over the little things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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