Joshua Lowe Posted February 10, 2017 Share #61 Posted February 10, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Video on the M didn't perform well and the form factor of the body and lenses weren't well suited to it, either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 Hi Joshua Lowe, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pop Posted February 10, 2017 Share #62 Posted February 10, 2017 There's a great many things I do not know about cameras and young people. However, there is one thing I do know, and it's this: The question "Will I be able to sell my camera to a young person once it has been made obsolete by a more recent one" has never influenced any camera buying decision I ever made. As a matter of fact, I have given at least three cameras to young persons after buying more recent ones, and only one of those had any video capabilities of any description. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted February 10, 2017 Share #63 Posted February 10, 2017 this says a lot about the need for video. No, I don't think it says anything beyond that 6 participants are skipping the M10 for the lack of video. That does not allow to draw any conclusion about how many would like to have video features on the M10. I am aware that an M isn't the perfect camera for video, but M lenses should allow for some great video shooting if the camera allowed it. So I am quite disappointed, that the M10 does not at least have some capability. (And I am not spending another 7k to buy a SL just for video). The only valid argument I can see against video on the M10 would be the addition of microphones on the camera, the rest of the hardware is surely up to it, as the M240 offered it too. I would actually even like video on the M10 as a firmware upgrade without the ability to record audio - one would use external recorders for high quality audio anyway. And there is no problem hiding it in some menu, so no valuable button has to be sacrificed for it. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Monkhouse Posted February 10, 2017 Share #64 Posted February 10, 2017 I paid twenty five pounds for my first Leica, a IIIc made in 1947, the year I was born. I traded it in for a second hand M3 which was subsequently traded in for an brand new M6 which I kept, never to use again but for the simple pleasure of owning a piece of superb engineering plus my fond memories of using it and the images it captured. I bought another IIIc just for the pleasure of owning a piece of photographic history. My wife bought me an M8 for my 60th birthday (she is lovely), the M8 became an M9P which will soon become an M10 on my 70th birthday in May. For my 80th birthday I shall purchase an M12 and have it delivered by FEDEX to the pearly gates always assuming I pass the entrance exam. The M10 is all I ever wanted digitally whilst still alive and I am chuffed to bits that Leica have finally got there before I am called to the Grand Lodge above. And for videoing my two young granddaughters to whom I have left my Leica's I shall continue to use my (Panasonic) D-LUX 6. Isn't life great.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 10, 2017 Share #65 Posted February 10, 2017 well I agree its not going to be perfect...but really is it that far off? Its an M camera, the audience is pretty small too begin with and this is the place to take the poll. Would you rather a poll of people who would never buy the camera to begin with? I think a poll taken outside of this forum would have far less value. Honestly I was surprised that the number was so low. Please bear in mind I'm not criticising the camera in any way. My point here is that people who decided not to buy the camera, for whatever reason, are far less likely to be reading about it than those who like it as it is, and therefore less likely to be responding to the poll. So we get a skewed impression. If Leica want to know why some people didn't want to buy the camera, they are the people to ask, not those of us who do want it. That's it, really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookedart Posted February 10, 2017 Share #66 Posted February 10, 2017 But still I don't find the improvements worth the cost of up-grading. Due to: - Video is a must on today's cameras. A camera without it belong to the past. I use video 'a little' when on holiday and as a tourist. The video and the still camera is then 'in the same box'. Compact and convenient. When buying a Leica we always have to prepare ourselves for selling it again. It's the young people buying 2.hand Leicas today. They will insist on having video included. No way I am going to buy a camera I will have problems selling to young people of today. - Battery capacity is marginal on the M(240) and really 'bad' compared to competition. Reducing it is going to create problems. This must be solved! What about having a big battery as an 'block add-on' at the bottom of the camera? As the motors were attached on the analogue M's? - How good is a 'much better sensor'? So good that no software created lens adjustments have to be made? Can we use other brand lenses, like Zeiss and Voigtländer, without having purple egdes? - I don't disagree that the removal of video is a little disappointing. However the M240 was never a good video body. Yes, better to have hobbled video than no video at all, but the reason to use an M is definitely for photography, first and foremost. I'm happy to use a separate body specifically designed for use with video (Panasonic GH4, Sony A7S). And with travel, a secondary camera like an RX100 will do the trick. - Battery capacity is sad, but hardly "really bad." Fuji and Sony battery life on all mirrorless bodies is not great. I've definitely seen 200-300 shots on the A7 and X100 series batteries, for instance. The m10 is in the 400-600 shot range. The m10 is better than most mirrorless batteries in my experience, just not as good as an M240. The solution is to just bring spare batteries, not a big block. The main issue is that the spares are so expensive. - The sensor is better in every way. Specifically ISO 10,000 seems very solid, you now have a base ISO of 100, and the corner shift is the best of any Leica M body. Check this thread for more detail, but I've tried some voigtlander and zeiss lenses and it's quite encouraging. What exactly are your expectations? I now find the M10's sensor competes very well (within a stop of the A7s which has a much lower resolution sensor) with the latest Sony bodies, which I consider state of the art. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonPB Posted February 10, 2017 Share #67 Posted February 10, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) There might be those among us for whom "the young people of today won't want it" is a convincing if irrational selling point. Cheers, Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 11, 2017 Share #68 Posted February 11, 2017 Personally, I didn't upgrade from the M9 to the M240 because I wasn't thrilled with the direction Leica seemed to be taking the platform. I am beyond happy with their decision to take the M10 back to the photographic essentials. I have my order in and will sell my M9 when it arrives. I can't wait. From a purist photographer's perspective, the M10 seems absolutely fantastic. It is everything the M9 should have been, and more. It is absolutely the camera I was hoping Leica would produce. I understand some are unhappy to see video disappear from the M. I can't sympathize with them. There are zillions of other cameras that do both stills and video. Their choices are plentiful. But how many digital cameras are there designed specifically for the purist photographer? This one. That is all. Thank you Leica for recognizing the need for such a camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edw Posted February 11, 2017 Share #69 Posted February 11, 2017 There might be those among us for whom "the young people of today won't want it" is a convincing if irrational selling point. Cheers, Jon I'd like to reassure you that, to quote the Who, "the kids are alright[sic]." I don't think the original poster has the slightest idea what the young people of today want. I was at Strand Books in the Village a couple weeks ago. I was on the second floor, looking for a copy of Robert Frank's The Americans, and a college kid came up to me and, seeing my M-D said, "Hey, nice camera!" I thanked him, and we chatted a bit. It turned out he had a Leica CL. Actually, two Leica CLs. I was unaware of the existence of the CL. He used his CLs to shoot photos of his friends skateboarding—often as he was also skateboarding. He was there with some of his skate rat friends, er skaters. I use the term skate rat lovingly—I skate as much as my increasing heft and knees and ankles allow. A couple months earlier I was walking around SoHo, and I came across a skate rat with his friend working on a trick. This is what I love about skateboarding: the kid must've tried that over a hundred times. He nailed it twice. And those two times are all that matter. But anyway, his friend was there recording the action, using what looked like a prosumer videocam from fifteen years ago. https://www.instagram.com/p/BNDABzxg_IZ/?taken-by=edwinwatkeys A few years earlier I was dating a girl who was a dancer and did part-time work as a video editor and shooter of other artists' gigs. She used a Sony mirrorless. Going back even earlier, I lived below a videographer in a cigarette wholesaler's loft in Old City, Philadelphia. He shot using one of the early video-capable Canon DSLRs. In both of these cases, these artists (read: "poor people") bought the cheapest gear that gave them the quality that they needed. None of these people spent a second wishing they were shooting video on a Leica digital rangefinder camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted February 11, 2017 Share #70 Posted February 11, 2017 Come on Carlos, you know very well they can't fit an eight track tape in there, but they can make it play MP3, possibly with a firmware update! Obviously the physical envelope of the M11 will need to be expanded to accommodate the venerable and classic eight track tape. I would expect that outside dimensions no larger than a folded up Deardorff 4x5 view camera should suffice. Think about it: That is really not much of a sacrifice in terms of increased size, given the expanded capabilities of the M11 camera/tape player. Wedding, birthday, anniversary and Bar Mitzvah photographers will be able to serve as deejay and photographer, thus increasing their cash flow... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted February 11, 2017 Share #71 Posted February 11, 2017 Obviously the physical envelope of the M11 will need to be expanded to accommodate the venerable and classic eight track tape. I would expect that outside dimensions no larger than a folded up Deardorff 4x5 view camera should suffice. Think about it: That is really not much of a sacrifice in terms of increased size, given the expanded capabilities of the M11 camera/tape player. Wedding, birthday, anniversary and Bar Mitzvah photographers will be able to serve as deejay and photographer, thus increasing their cash flow... I hope Leica is listening! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddishpink Posted February 11, 2017 Share #72 Posted February 11, 2017 Hello, I'm in agreement that Video is a waste of energy/space on the M. I've had my M240 for 3 years and, with the exception of a wee test when I got it, have never used video. I don't miss it at all. For me, the M should remain as a pure stills camera. The new M10 is lovely, I'm very impressed and haven't felt the need to reach for my M240 which will soon be sold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted February 11, 2017 Share #73 Posted February 11, 2017 ... - Video is a must on today's cameras. A camera without it belong to the past... If you measure a camera with features like video, touchscreen and other stuff like this, you're possibly wrong with a Leica M. Have a look at the SL series instead. I think Leica is re-positioning the M back to the roots since the SL is available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naper Posted February 11, 2017 Share #74 Posted February 11, 2017 When the M240 was introduced the 2 most negative comments was the video and the bulk. Leica has corrected these two issues with the introduction of the M10. If customers prefer video and a larger battery the M240 is still available new and as people upgrade there will be ample used 240's on the market. A M for everyone !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 11, 2017 Share #75 Posted February 11, 2017 Calling for video and larger battery for an M10 is like calling for colour with a Monochrome or a display with an M-D - would be nice to have... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 11, 2017 Share #76 Posted February 11, 2017 When the M240 was introduced the 2 most negative comments was the video and the bulk. Leica has corrected these two issues with the introduction of the M10. If customers prefer video and a larger battery the M240 is still available new and as people upgrade there will be ample used 240's on the market. A M for everyone !!! What about the people who would like the other improvements that the M10 offers over the M240, like the sensor and the viewfinder, but would like to keep video? We all know that no camera is perfect for everyone. But in our excitement about having a camera that is perfect for some of us, I feel it's a bit of a shame that some M users feel they are being almost forced towards other cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted February 11, 2017 Share #77 Posted February 11, 2017 From what I understand from the interview, the omission of video is due to technical difficulties not a design decision. The thin body leaving no space for heat dissipation and an adequate battery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 11, 2017 Share #78 Posted February 11, 2017 We all know that no camera is perfect for everyone. But in our excitement about having a camera that is perfect for some of us, I feel it's a bit of a shame that some M users feel they are being almost forced towards other cameras. Honestly, I think that if video is important enough to them that the lack of it would force them to another camera, then the M was never the camera for them in the first place. There are lots of other cameras and platforms that are more suited to video. The M is best suited to stills, and the M10 prioritizes that function above all else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 11, 2017 Share #79 Posted February 11, 2017 Honestly, I think that if video is important enough to them that the lack of it would force them to another camera, then the M was never the camera for them in the first place. There are lots of other cameras and platforms that are more suited to video. The M is best suited to stills, and the M10 prioritizes that function above all else.OK, this isn't my fight because Ive never used my M240 for video and wouldn't use it in my M10 if it had it. I should pipe down really! If the M240 hadn't had video would anyone be asking for it now? Probably not. But Jaap made an eloquent case for having it in his M and I don't like it when people who've been using Ms for so long are told that it's really not the camera for them just because they like the odd non-essential feature. Like a rear screen, according to some who regard the M-D as the more essentialist version. It comes down to what suits each of us best, in the end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 11, 2017 Share #80 Posted February 11, 2017 But Jaap made an eloquent case for having it in his M and I don't like it when people who've been using Ms for so long are told that it's really not the camera for them just because they like the odd non-essential feature. Like a rear screen, according to some who regard the M-D as the more essentialist version. What comment by Jaap are you referring to? I don't see where he has posted in this thread. Perhaps another thread or perhaps you meant to refer to Olsen. Regardless, I stand by my comment. I think the vast majority of longtime Leica M users are fine with the lack of video, and those that feel they absolutely must have video would be best-suited to choose a different camera. But I think you misinterpreted my comment. I'm didn't say those who "like the odd non-essential feature" should choose a different camera. I said those who consider it an indispensable feature (i.e., one they couldn't live without) would be better suited with a different camera. Those who consider video indispensable were never likely to be fully satisfied with the video performance on the M and there are so many better options out there. (for example, see this thread on the M240: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/203332-leica-m-video-capability/ ) Leica saw this and that's why they created a clear demarcation between the M and the SL moving forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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