What is that under the M10 Base Plate? {merged}

[mjhoy]

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2 hours ago, Alex Hude said:

Sigh.. You have no idea how much I want to probe this port with my breakout cable

I am happy to read this. If you make a kickstarter for the M10 I would donate without hesitation.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Permit me a brief reminiscence.  Way back before PCs, when really smart, programmable desk calculators were first appearing, we bought an early model, which came in two flavors -- the basic calculator for $100, or the fancy highly programmable version for $500.  We bought the cheap one.  When it arrived, we noticed a plastic plug covering an area over on the side of its panel.  We removed the plug and found a switch.  Threw the switch, and discovered that it now did all the fancy stuff that should have cost $500.  So hiding things that a product doesn't need to do is a very ancient technique.

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, mjhoy said:

I am happy to read this. If you make a kickstarter for the M10 I would donate without hesitation.

Great idea.  the minimum contributors would receive a full report of what is found.  The next step up would get working software and a cable to use themselves.

[Alex Hude]

Quote

 If you make a kickstarter for the M10

Honestly? I don't think this will work by many reasons. I don't remember even one successful crowdfunding for such things. We have more chances to raise money for the movie about me hacking that camera

And most likely Leica will shut that down next day.

[pico]

1 hour ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Permit me a brief reminiscence. [...]

That is exactly what my father did with samples he received from Texas Instruments back in the day! He also invited me to his workplace where they had a huge IBM computer in a glass room. (High assets were conspicuously displayed.) On that day IBM was installing a new component of breathtaking expense. In walks the IBM tech in his charcoal grey suit and leather attache case. He goes inside the computer, through the backside and emerges in about half an hour, "All set, Sir!". I asked Father what the devil fit in an attache case that was so expensive. He answered, "It's always been in the machine. All the chap did was flip a few dip-switches. That's the business for you."

I eventually went with DEC systems.

Regarding reverse-engineering, I would be surprised if Leica does not have some language in their agreements prohibiting the publication or exploitation of such.

Edited February 5, 2019 by pico

[Alex Hude]

Quote

What possible harm could you do....?

Well, that depends. I could do a lot of harm! Just kidding

First of all we need to get firmware (not updater but actual firmware). I had a look at very first available updater for M10 after release and my bet it is compressed, not encrypted. However I don't recognise compression type. So:

1. it is possible to stare at hex and try to recover it non-invasive way like I did for M240 for a very long time (NO HARM), or
2. take camera apart, solder to the bus and sniff firmware from flash (ALMOST NO HARM), or
3. if there is no place to sniff - rip off flash chip and dump firmware using external programmer (COULD BE A PROBLEM PUTTING CHIP BACK)

For my own camera I obviously use (1), for semi-broken devices I have bought specifically for hacking I use (2) or (3) to speed up the research. If it is someone else's device I just ask if owner agrees to do this and that.

Good things about M10; 

• it is ARM based which is my main area of expertise
• port seems same, so quite possible pinout is the same

Again, I am pretty sure calibration and other precise stuff will be off if we have to disassemble the camera, therefore it needs to be a testing unit which we can kill without tears (even if we are not going to) 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Alex Hude

[scott kirkpatrick]

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Actually, for the current generation of WiFi-equipped devices, I would think hacking Fotos in order to see what other parts of camera state could be read or written to might produce more immediate insights.  Just sayin'.

[pico]

I wonder if Leica could make part of the M10 body over the blue-tooth, WiFi and GPS from carbon fiber rather than cramming into into their otherwise wonderful conventional brass, or sell us a multi-functional accessory grip that does the same

Edited February 5, 2019 by pico

[rrdiaz30]

4 hours ago, pico said:

I wonder if Leica could make part of the M10 body over the blue-tooth, WiFi and GPS from carbon fiber rather than cramming into into their otherwise wonderful conventional brass, or sell us a multi-functional accessory grip that does the same

A Carbon fiber frame/cover can attenuate WiFi and GPS signals.

[Mark II]

You do not need to hack the Fotos app. The M10 WiFi puts out a (mostly) standard PTP/IP and an MQTT server. If you explore these you will find some interesting things, including some curious URLs. But given that the M10 works pretty optimally your time would be better invested in taking pictures...

[scott kirkpatrick]

8 hours ago, Mark II said:

You do not need to hack the Fotos app. The M10 WiFi puts out a (mostly) standard PTP/IP and an MQTT server. If you explore these you will find some interesting things, including some curious URLs. But given that the M10 works pretty optimally your time would be better invested in taking pictures...

My interest is in the M10-D, which has some capabilities that we still can't reach.  I'll have a deeper look at PTP protocols, which I haven't used.

I do take pictures, and post them in this forum.  

Edited February 6, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick
remove snark

[Mark II]

What is it that you want to do?

[scott kirkpatrick]

See if the multi-level menus and the longer lists can be read and written over PTP.  An example of the first is setting up the parameters for interval shooting.  An example of the second is setting a lens profile for a non-coded lens.  A third case would be setting the first character and folder numbers or artist/copyright information.  I'm assuming the M10-P firmware is all in there somewhere.

BTW Google and Wikipedia only point to very stale information on PTP/IP and don't find MOTT.   What is that and is it documented under some other name?

edit:  I see that Leica-Sync can do some of this -- you mention adding copyright info.

Edited February 6, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[pico]

6 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

BTW Google and Wikipedia only point to very stale information on PTP/IP and don't find MOTT.   What is that and is it documented under some other name?

MQTT

[Mark II]

2 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

See if the multi-level menus and the longer lists can be read and written over PTP.  An example of the first is setting up the parameters for interval shooting.  An example of the second is setting a lens profile for a non-coded lens.  A third case would be setting the first character and folder numbers or artist/copyright information.

Yes, all these can be done over PTP/IP with the M10.  The Mac sync software does copyright already, because it bugged me and it is standard enough to be “safe”.

The others all require progressively more proprietary commands and/or data. For example, the interval settings use standard PTP messages but the codings are either Leica or M10 specific, and there is no guarantee that they will not change with different camera models. Also some things do not work properly, possibly because of firmware bugs or other limitations (the standard PTP mechanism for setting the date/time, for example, gives an error when written). I did not put a lot of effort in to this, as all I needed was a means to download images from the camera when I did not have a card reader.

Thanks to Brexit I am in danger of running out of work next month, so I may have a chance to look at adding some more settings to the Mac app. However, I am not happy modifying proprietary settings without some official support from Leica.

For MQTT see mqtt.org. I have not looked in to what the server might be used for...

[scott kirkpatrick]

Does everything that you write to the M10 (or other family members) go into non-volatile memory?  Does the PTP interface handle figuring out whether you want something from the files on the SD card or a setting that is presumably in NVRAM when you are reading from the camera?  One thing that has been observed is that when you use FOTOS to change a setting on the M10 that can be set on a visible dial, like shutter speed or ISO, the changed setting sticks only until you power off and power on again.  There is some boot process that resets those.  Also the date and time  on the M10-D can be set to synchronize with your phone if you use FOTOS.  It hadn't occurred to me to try that with any other model of camera*, but it suggests that date and time are wrapped up in some proprietary stuff.

If entering data into the copyright field is possible, how about setting the leading digits of the filename?  At present, the M10-D lets you select a leading letter only.while the M10 offers four characters.

*And there is no settings option to set date and time automatically at present (1.1.0) for the other camera types.  That's a shame -- it's useful.

[marknorton]

On 2/5/2019 at 2:48 PM, pico said:

That is exactly what my father did with samples he received from Texas Instruments back in the day! He also invited me to his workplace where they had a huge IBM computer in a glass room. (High assets were conspicuously displayed.) On that day IBM was installing a new component of breathtaking expense. In walks the IBM tech in his charcoal grey suit and leather attache case. He goes inside the computer, through the backside and emerges in about half an hour, "All set, Sir!". I asked Father what the devil fit in an attache case that was so expensive. He answered, "It's always been in the machine. All the chap did was flip a few dip-switches. That's the business for you."

I eventually went with DEC systems.

Regarding reverse-engineering, I would be surprised if Leica does not have some language in their agreements prohibiting the publication or exploitation of such.

Similar experience. I used to work for IBM on a product line where there were two models, one three times as fast as the other. The hardware was identical but the slower machine had a soaker task running on an interrupt level which slowed the apparent speed of the machine. You could upgrade from one to the other for many thousands of USD. What actually happened was that a jumper was removed to disable to the soaker task and, hey, presto, the machine ran faster.

[DaveSee]

On 2/6/2019 at 8:19 AM, Mark II said:

What is it that you want to do?

On 2/6/2019 at 6:59 AM, scott kirkpatrick said:

My interest is in the M10-D, which has some capabilities that we still can't reach.  I'll have a deeper look at PTP protocols, which I haven't used.

I do take pictures, and post them in this forum.  

Thanks to you both, in particular to this discourse: Mark, for your coding/app; Scott for your perniciousness/inquiry, in practice!

Mark: hoping you are seeing the other side with gainful employment soon!

Scott: you & I, among others, are digging into the "screenless" M10-D potential...

What do I want to do?  Please, free the sensor from Leica firmware censure!

Now, wither protocol, therein embedded in chip/firmware is capacity in the M10-D, including:

--only recognize 6-bit encoded lenses when affixed, otherwise NO in camera software lens "correction."  Several "M-mount," non-encoded lenses have have produced such CA-ridden abominations, even in DNG, all due to the "smarts" of the M10-D firmware... No, thanks, but no thank you!  Assuming a fixed lens' attributes in software is pure folly!  My M8 bested this handily, despite both not having an anti-aliasing filter.

--permit/program "White Balance" temperature setting manually, in Kelvin, through FOTOS, as 10M-P with same firmware is able in menu.  No: this is not about exposure, but the sensitivity, or better, divination of how the Maestro II sorts color... the "cones," not the "rods" of that received.

--file naming is an "also ran," yet ability to set 2-3 "preset" ISO+WB+file_type profiles would be super... would be useful, "nutzlich."

in uniton,

Dave

 

 

 

[pico]

5 hours ago, DaveSee said:

--only recognize 6-bit encoded lenses when affixed, otherwise NO in camera software lens "correction." 

Perhaps someone can help - is it not true that lens adjustments are stored in the DNG in a manner that they can be ignored in post-processing?

 

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Hallo,

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