Peter H Posted February 19, 2017 Share #61 Posted February 19, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) If I were mentally suited to the sort of rational analysis that lets some people decide whether to buy an M10 rather than an SL, or the other way round, I'd miss one of the most important factors of all in my decision: the M10 is nicer. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 19, 2017 Posted February 19, 2017 Hi Peter H, Take a look here M10 or SL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Steve Spencer Posted February 19, 2017 Share #62 Posted February 19, 2017 Exactly right…..It all depends what one needs a camera to do, there's yet to be a camera that does it all, at least not for me anyway. So, for my DSLR needs nothing yet beats a fully fledged Nikon, in my case a D810. Built like a tank and produces really great files. The OVF is close to the superb R OVF which I rate as the best ever. I'm in the club that says a good OVF beats an EVF anyday, hands down. I tried more than once to love the SL's EVF, just couldn't and anyway the SL native lenses are ridiculously large lumps and glass and metal to hump around irrespective of their optical performances. I also found the SL awkward to use. Yes I know of it's value with M lenses, but that's irrelevant to me. For an EVF camera I much prefer my Panasonic GH4, ( and have pre-ordered the GH5 ), the EVF is really good and for my eye easily an equal to the SL's, the LCD is great too being orientable and a touch screen, the camera operation and controls are very logical and it produces great 4K video which for me is the camera's main usage. No 4K in a Leica yet which is a damming point for those who shoot video and stills with the same gear/systems. I have a Q that I am constantly telling myself that I should sell, but I love using it and the images are pretty damn good without much of an effort. In my case it's become a really expensive snapshot camera I guess. It's my grab and run camera either for on-set work or personal walking around stuff. My present M's consist of two M 240's and a MM1 and I like them enough not to be tempted to upgrade to the M10. The MM1's B&W image quality is glorious, so TriX, so that's a keeper for good and although admittedly I've been one of those who has nudged for ever for a "thinner" M now that there's one available I don't think that it's worth the extra expense it would take to trade the 240's and buy one. Also I know many are slathering over the top ISO dial, but I cannot see what the big deal is there. I have never had an ISO shifting problem with any of my Digital M's, best if it wasn't there at all in my view. I would have liked more finder info' but that's just personal, there's always something isn't there? As earlygallery said, "horses for courses" Doesn't the SL have 4K video in Super 35 format? I think it is quite good too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steppenw0lf Posted February 20, 2017 Share #63 Posted February 20, 2017 For macro have you tried the S 120 f/2.5? I have thought that ought to be an awesome lens even on the SL. Yes I regard it as an exceptional lens - judging from pictures seen in the web. But I have no budget for it - and already a collection of other (excellent) macro lenses. About the thread topic: I can use the exceptional lenses from the M system also on the SL, but not the SL lenses (90-280 is really exceptional) on the M10. So the M10 is just a niche camera (subset of topics) for me - and the MM2 (M246) fulfills this role just as well (better ?). So I could not choose the M10, unless I would simply restrict myself to a small selection of topics. Starting with topics, it is quite clear which camera to choose. (Which is not the same as saying this or that is "better". This sort of statement should be avoided, anyway. It is oversimplifying and close to unfriendly.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsydaus Posted March 18, 2017 Share #64 Posted March 18, 2017 I don't use the EVF that much, but the blackout for me is completely acceptable. If you're a burst mode freak and need AF lenses, I'd not recommend the M10 (or any rangefinder). If you like RF photography, are happy with manual lenses, and have an occasional need for EVF (with the advantage on the M10 that it swivels - really helpful for macro and other odd angles) then the M10 is a better camera than the SL. Yes I've decided on the M10 and will be ordering when my next pay comes in. Anyone in Sydney who wants a well looked after 240 with EVF2!? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy Posted March 18, 2017 Share #65 Posted March 18, 2017 After 10 Years of digital M photography, I will change to SL. I come from R-photography, wanted to stay with Leica and switched to M System, hoping to get used to it, but actually I never really did. Last week I had the chance to test a SL for a while. I was not sure, if I would like size and weight and EVF. Okay, it is big, but it is handy and well balanced, the EVF is as great as anybody tells us after having tried it. So, my 5 weeks old M10 went yesterday and I am going to buy a SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 18, 2017 Share #66 Posted March 18, 2017 After 10 Years of digital M photography, I will change to SL. I come from R-photography, wanted to stay with Leica and switched to M System, hoping to get used to it, but actually I never really did. Last week I had the chance to test a SL for a while. I was not sure, if I would like size and weight and EVF. Okay, it is big, but it is handy and well balanced, the EVF is as great as anybody tells us after having tried it. So, my 5 weeks old M10 went yesterday and I am going to buy a SL. Enjoy, it is a nice camera indeed. I have gone the other way SL to M10 and I am enjoying my change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy Posted March 18, 2017 Share #67 Posted March 18, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Enjoy, it is a nice camera indeed. I have gone the other way SL to M10 and I am enjoying my change. Hahaha, so many reasons to make a change in one or another direction - enjoy too !!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted March 18, 2017 Share #68 Posted March 18, 2017 I am selling my M240 to get a SL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeicaGuy2014 Posted March 18, 2017 Share #69 Posted March 18, 2017 I can see trading an M240 for the M10 ... The improvements are huge and important. The SL is a beast of a camera that targets a different type of photographer (but it's a superset that includes street photography. So, in that sense, it's a more versatile camera, with a trade-off in size (in the body and more so, in the AF lenses). That said, I have the 50SL and it's a wonderful lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted March 18, 2017 Share #70 Posted March 18, 2017 I can see trading an M240 for the M10 ... The improvements are huge and important. The SL is a beast of a camera that targets a different type of photographer ... That's exactly the point! The M10 ist the next step to separate two different product lines (M/SL). Under a marketing perspecitve: Great job Leica! Interesting to see the actual user reactions/decisions - couldn't be better for Leica ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted March 18, 2017 Share #71 Posted March 18, 2017 After 10 Years of digital M photography, I will change to SL. I come from R-photography, wanted to stay with Leica and switched to M System, hoping to get used to it, but actually I never really did. Last week I had the chance to test a SL for a while. I was not sure, if I would like size and weight and EVF. Okay, it is big, but it is handy and well balanced, the EVF is as great as anybody tells us after having tried it. So, my 5 weeks old M10 went yesterday and I am going to buy a SL. The SL is a very nice camera and you won't be disappointed in it. Ultimately I just found the size and weight too much, especially with the SL lenses. I went from the M240 to SL and was initially very happy with the move, but after 6 months I found that I really missed the smaller M. Ultimately once the M10 came out I sold off the SL and lenses at a huge loss, but couldn't be happier to have my M back. I prefer to keep my camera with me at all times and just found with the SL I ended up leaving it behind because of the size. It's a sweet camera and the EVF is just amazing, but the best camera is the one that is with you and for me the M10 fits perfectly. I do miss the SL though, I wish I could keep both. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted March 18, 2017 Share #72 Posted March 18, 2017 The SL is a very nice camera and you won't be disappointed in it. Ultimately I just found the size and weight too much, especially with the SL lenses. I went from the M240 to SL and was initially very happy with the move, but after 6 months I found that I really missed the smaller M. Ultimately once the M10 came out I sold off the SL and lenses at a huge loss, but couldn't be happier to have my M back. I prefer to keep my camera with me at all times and just found with the SL I ended up leaving it behind because of the size. It's a sweet camera and the EVF is just amazing, but the best camera is the one that is with you and for me the M10 fits perfectly. I do miss the SL though, I wish I could keep both. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro +1 Same feeling exactly except I kept my SL and don't know what I want to do with it. I've put the noctilux on it since it's very well balanced compared to having it on the M10. But that's really making an excuse to use it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2017 Share #73 Posted March 19, 2017 As a further reason for getting the M10 rather than the SL I can report that the EVF is really sweet to use. Auto-focus magnification with M lenses works really well and long lenses like the 135 apo-telyt really shine with this combination. I've been doing some documentary work in the Eastern Baltic countries and would have brought a Canon 5D3 + 70-200 on earlier trips. I'm finding that 135 is plenty long enough for what I'm doing and focus is pin sharp every time. As the high ISO on the M10 is so good, shooting at 3200 isn't an issue at all. Also note that I was working without a tripod or monopod and that NO Luminance NR has been used on these. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! OK - for fast moving subjects the SL makes sense (but so does any modern DSLR), but for this kind of work the M10 works beautifully (it's also excellent with the R 80-200!) Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! OK - for fast moving subjects the SL makes sense (but so does any modern DSLR), but for this kind of work the M10 works beautifully (it's also excellent with the R 80-200!) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268611-m10-or-sl/?do=findComment&comment=3236719'>More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2017 Share #74 Posted March 19, 2017 As a further reason for getting the M10 rather than the SL I can report that the EVF is really sweet to use. Auto-focus magnification with M lenses works really well and long lenses like the 135 apo-telyt really shine with this combination. I've been doing some documentary work in the Eastern Baltic countries and would have brought a Canon 5D3 + 70-200 on earlier trips. I'm finding that 135 is plenty long enough for what I'm doing and focus is pin sharp every time. As the high ISO on the M10 is so good, shooting at 3200 isn't an issue at all. Also note that I was working without a tripod or monopod and that NO Luminance NR has been used on these. Chris, I agree the 135mm is a beautiful lens and your example shots here are super considering the ISO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted March 19, 2017 Share #75 Posted March 19, 2017 I use the 135 Apo-telyt without any problem with my M240 + EVF (never used before with the M9) , I love that lens Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted March 19, 2017 Share #76 Posted March 19, 2017 Agreed that you can make the 135 AT work on the M240 - I did for a long time. For me, however, it was never the PLEASURE that it is with the M10 + my hit rate is dramatically improved. I thought the SL was going to be the answer for me with using longer M and R lenses - but it proved to be the reverse as I didn't enjoy the weight and the mass of the beast. With the lovely slim M10 + the surprisingly good visoflex I have a set of tools that free me up for working long (and wide with the 21 SEM) without weighing me down. And honestly, the auto magnify you get with M lenses on the M10 beats the manual focusing experience on the SL for me. If you want a best of both worlds body for your M or R lenses (RF + EVF), for me the M10 is a no brainer. If you want an SL system and also to have the freedom to use your M lenses, then the compromises might be worth it. Just my 2 cents Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicauser7 Posted March 19, 2017 Share #77 Posted March 19, 2017 One point that I'm surprised (I believe) has not been made is that the SL is about a year and a quarter to a half older then the M10. Assuming that these cameras are on similar refresh cycles (though if anything one might expect the SL to be on a relatively shorter cycle as its a G1 camera), purchase of an SL now makes comparatively less sense in that it's likely to get a significant refresh toward the end of next year -- almost certainly, one would think, moving to a denser sensor... 30, 36 mps... for anyone contemplating owning both platforms in the long term, the M seems the smarter place to start while the SL continues to mature at a more rapid rate... more of a "commercial" perspective than anything... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2017 Share #78 Posted March 19, 2017 the weight and the mass of the beast. The biggest reason why I got rid of the SL in favour of the M10, but kept most of my M lenses and changed two of them for different M lenses. Now have 28/50/90/135. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted March 19, 2017 Share #79 Posted March 19, 2017 I'm finding that using the M10 is a revelation. Getting critical focus is so much easier than any previous M I have used, and I thought I was quite good at it after 30+ years of constant practice and experience. And I haven't got the EVF yet. I don't think I'll need it very often, perhaps only for macro and one or two particular conditions. I apologise to Leica for dissing the M10 when I first read the specs. This camera has given me the optimum combination of a really good OVF with fast and accurate focussing that I could have hoped for. And I really like the sensor and the way it handles colour. I have to say, it is so much better and a far greater advance than the specifications alone suggest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budfox Posted March 19, 2017 Share #80 Posted March 19, 2017 The M10 and SL are substantially very different cameras - though essentially sharing the same sensor (noting the M10 has modified it a little - but it's still the same starting point, same pixels, same max ISO). The SL has AF, in lens stabilisation options, 11FPS, 4K video, current state of the art EVF, and is a more versatile platform for that exact reason. But it's bigger and heavier. With it's 24-90 it really feels like a DSLR competitor. Nothing like an M. I nearly ordered the M10, but had a lingering doubt about that much money on a camera with the same sensor that I already had in the SL. And the SL is great with M lenses in any case, and I am happy with the bigger body when I want to use M lenses with an EVF. For me I therefore settled to stay with the SL for all the above reasons. And I use it a lot more that my (now superseded) M cameras. But for others, the lighter M10 with better rangefinder is definitely the 'best' digital M to date by any objective measure (CCD arguments aside!). So if lighter rangefinder manual focus is your main thing, the M10 makes perfect sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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